Jim Spiegel [00:00:00]:

Even Christians surrender foothold to demonic forces, you say, through unconfessed sins. What what are some particular examples?

Karl Payne [00:00:09]:

I'll tell you what people would think, and then I'll tell you what I have found to be the reality. What people think is, well, they're they're occultists. I mean, you know, they've gotten involved in in spiritism, in new age religion and but what I have found most often, it's more subtle than that. What I have found comes up most often is fear And the second close to it is bitterness around forgiveness. Welcome to the Kalos Center podcast.

Jim Spiegel [00:00:45]:

Welcome everybody to another episode of the Kalos Center podcast. Our guest today is Carl Paine. Carl earned his master's of divinity and doctorate of ministry at Western Seminary, and for his entire adult life, he has been involved in Christian ministry. For about twenty years, Carl served as chaplain for the Seattle Seahawks football team. And since 1992, he served as the pastor of leadership development and discipleship at Antioch Bible Church in Redmond, Washington. Carl is the author of several books including Adjust Defense, the use of force, nuclear weapons, and our conscience, a three volume book series on discipleship training entitled Transferable Cross Training, and a book on the topic that will concern us today entitled Spiritual Warfare, Christians, demonization, and deliverance. Doctor Paine is a frequent speaker around the country on issues related to Christian discipleship, and today he's gonna talk with us about spiritual warfare. So Carl Payne, welcome to the Calo Center podcast.

Karl Payne [00:01:53]:

Thank you. I've, I've looked forward to this time with you. And when it's all said and done, if both of us are glad we had the time together, then that's a a glory to God and win win. Right?

Jim Spiegel [00:02:04]:

That's right. Amen. So let me let me begin with the elephant in the room, at least for some people, and that is the fact that the topic of spiritual warfare is a controversial and divisive one, in the Christian community. Why is that?

Karl Payne [00:02:22]:

I would say probably because of paradigms. I would say probably because too many times people are committed to the faith of the fathers, the traditions, the theological paradigms, rather than just taking it back to Scripture, which should be the foundation, and saying if I'm understanding Scripture in context, this certainly appears to be what this is saying without having to do some kind of etymological or theological gymnastics to get there. So, yeah, I mean, the simple answer would be that for so I'll give you one more reason too, Jim. For so many of us, in my generation at least, and I know it was before because I've been at this quite a while, and still goes on today, in our seminaries and bible schools, and I've been to both besides university, usually spiritual warfare is a subject that is kind of put on its side and just saying, You know, if you just really focus on reading your bible and memorizing scripture and praying, you'll be just fine. And if there are wings or circles or elements of the people professing to be Christians that wanna focus on them, let them do it at 03:00 in the morning, and they can they can create any kind of circus they want. But, you know, if you're committed to scripture and if you're sane and and and committed to the truth of scripture instead of how you feel, then just leave it alone. And, my I've told people two schools I did my, you know, work at, Multnomah School of the Bible and Western Seminary were both very solid Bible based, schools that are respected still, you know, to this day. But in both of them, we didn't make fun.

Karl Payne [00:04:09]:

I don't remember making fun of the topic. We just never talked about it. So if you take people committed to their paradigms, their theological paradigms, I don't really know why I believe it, but I'm a Calvinist in all five points, or I'm an Arminian in all five points, or I'm part of covenant theology system, and and that's where I stand. Or I'm part of a dispensational group, and that's where I stand. If that's where they're at, it's like don't bother me with scripture because that's what I believe. And I think that sometimes this topic has been thrown in that same kind of place, Jim. And so I don't think it's, I don't think we would say we're purposely afraid of it, but I think in many circles, we're afraid of it. And I would say in other circles, we aggrandize it.

Karl Payne [00:04:57]:

And so you've got many people saying, I'll just leave it alone.

Jim Spiegel [00:05:01]:

Interesting. Yeah. So it's that way with a lot of issues, isn't it? But maybe especially here that, our theological system or paradigm as you say, can get in the way of even a plain reading of scripture.

Karl Payne [00:05:16]:

Mhmm.

Jim Spiegel [00:05:17]:

Your your book, which I found, extremely helpful and informative and inspiring in a way, on spiritual where warfare, you set that topic in a broader context of three principle enemies of the children of God. What are those three enemies?

Karl Payne [00:05:39]:

If you're wanting it like I would teach it in a discipleship class, I would just say it's world, flesh, and devil. I want things clean, simple and transferable. If you're around colleagues that are nervous, if it doesn't sound a little more educated, you know, then you can say it's physiological, sociological and supernatural. It's the same thing. In chapter four of my book, I try to open up what's the world, how do you recognize it, how do you respond to it. Chapter five, what what are our challenges with the flesh, how do you recognize it, how do you respond to it. Chapter six, you know, what as a as a as an issue for Christians to deal with. How do you recognize supernatural attack and how do you respond to it? My point I try and make in that book is it's not all or nothing.

Karl Payne [00:06:26]:

I have spoke all over the country. I still enjoy speaking on this. And usually when I'm with people that are, you know, who have a theological background, probably more like me. I'm I'm ordained as a conservative Baptist minister. They'll say, you know, all three are real, but let's spend about 95 percent of our time talking about the flesh and not get lost in the weeds on the other stuff. And when I'm in charismatic churches, people, you know, with with the charismatic type background, it's usually about 95% of the time, doctor Payne, can we talk about the demonic stuff? Because, you know, we're not really too worried about the other stuff. We all got handles on that. And so, you know, as long as you can guarantee that, your struggles are going to be primarily with the flesh or primarily with the world or primarily with the devil, I suppose you can ignore the others.

Karl Payne [00:07:17]:

If you can't guarantee that and I can't, then I suggest in that book you learn how to recognize and respond to all three. I've called it for many years, I said it's just like having a quiver on your shoulder and having an arrow. One says the world, one says the flesh, one says the devil. And if I'm, you know, dealing with someone struggling with with external solicitation, which is typically how the world works, pull out your the arrow the arrow that says world. If it's dealing with physiological, you know, the flesh, it's primarily internal solicitation, pull out that one. If it's supernatural, I believe that can be either internal or external depending on the circumstances, then pull that out. If I don't know what I'm dealing with because I've never been trained to recognize it, then I guess. Now maybe this is demons.

Karl Payne [00:08:06]:

Well, maybe this is my flesh. Maybe this is that thing called the world. And, you know, usually when you guess, you lose more than you win. And then at some point, you'll have people say, I guess this Christianity thing just doesn't work for me or or someday I'll take it up with Jesus and he can explain it because I don't know how to get on top of this. And then when someone says, how come you don't talk to people about the joy of Jesus and your walk with Jesus Christ? You say, because I'm enduring it. I I, you know, I feel hypocritical if I say, hey, you gotta get get on board with my Jesus because he'll change your life and every day, you know, you'll have a spring in your step and all you're going, yeah, that's a lie. You know, I feel like I've got all kinds of challenges. I don't seem to figure out, so I'll just hold on to the knot and Jesus come quickly.

Karl Payne [00:08:53]:

And I can tell you as a person that's been pastoring vocationally since 1980. I mean, I've volunteered years before that with both Young Life and Campus Crusade for Christ when I was a student, a kid. But our churches are filled with people that know the words to the songs. They've learned how to memorize scripture. They pray and yet they feel like their body is a prison. They feel like their brain is a prison. They don't feel like it's a temple. And one circle will say, well it's because they're obviously not saved.

Karl Payne [00:09:26]:

And, you know, because I never go through that and I say I'd love to talk with your wife or your kids or your boss and we'll find out how true that is. Or, you know, just either I'm so proud, you know, I don't get bothered with any of that or I am so beat up, what's the use of trying and we've got a lot of people in that circle. And if they finally get the courage to come to talk to you and your explanation is either I don't know, let's guess or clearly you're not saved or you wouldn't be going through this because I don't relate to what you're saying. I have no idea what you're talking about. So, you know, read Bible more and memorize more scripture and everything will be great. Or I suppose if it's on the other side, well, just let's let's find the demon of the coffee cup or the demon of the the oak tree or whatever it is and tell him to get lost and and, you know, everything will be fine. And then when it's not fine, Jim, they just go, okay. For Jim, he loves his Christian walk and he loves Jesus.

Karl Payne [00:10:27]:

I love Jesus. I endure my Christian walk. But I'm not going to tell anybody again because when I tried to say something about it, people just kind of stared or rolled their eyes or whatever. It's just not worth it. So I'll go to church. I'll sing the songs. I'll read the verses. I mean it.

Karl Payne [00:10:42]:

But if you say is there joy, I say, no, I endure it.

Jim Spiegel [00:10:46]:

So let's talk about different kinds of demonization using demonization as kind of a general canopy term. The standard categories for thinking about spiritual warfare in Christian communities, are possession and oppression. Right? And that you have, people who don't have the holy spirit living inside them. They're susceptible to potentially being possessed as well as oppressed. Christians can't be possessed, but they can be oppressed. You propose that, these aren't as useful or as exhaustive as categories as a lot of people think. Can you explain that?

Karl Payne [00:11:28]:

Yeah. And I'd also just tie on to that. I don't think there is accurate with scripture. I don't think they're, I think they're harder to reconcile with scripture. But their tradition, their what we use, that's what most of us, you know, that's what most of us heard. Basically, the idea of oppression is the idea that, we get arrows shot at us. It's an inconvenience. You know, I put up my shield of faith, although nine out of 10 Christians I talk to, if I say, you know, what does that mean to put up your shield of faith? I go, I I guess you just pray and say, Jesus, help.

Karl Payne [00:12:04]:

I I don't know for sure, but I know I've got that shield of faith because Ephesians six says and 16 says I got it, but I don't understand much about it. But it's annoying. And and, you know, you get you get a thought. You're driving on the freeway and and and, you know, run your car into the pylon. I can't tell you how many Christians have said I've had thoughts like that. I'd never do it. It's just stupid, you know, but or or, Jesus doesn't love you. He may have loved you once, but he doesn't anymore.

Karl Payne [00:12:33]:

So give up and die. Or if Jesus really loved you, why wouldn't he answer your prayers? He doesn't. It's because he doesn't love you. I've had safe and sane pastors, missionaries, parishioners for years go, I get hit with that stuff. But you know, it's just irritating. But that's when you think of the oppressive arrows. The other side of it typically where people will go is possession and they'll tie the word ownership which there's no scriptural basis for that. But they usually say that, well that means you're owned by the devil and you have no self will, you have no ability to defend yourself.

Karl Payne [00:13:08]:

They usually go to, you know, the Matthew eight or the Luke eight that lives in the tombs, howls at the moon, hurts people, breaks chains, and we don't see many people like that in our church. So and then the caveat that you already mentioned, of course, Christians, you know, because the spirit of God lives in them can't have anything evil in them because the spirit of God lives there and he's holy and he wouldn't he wouldn't share that space, you know, of your body or your mind, with a demon. So, clearly someone struggling with that can't be saved. And I what I suggest in that is I don't think that that paradigm is as wrong, certainly not intentionally wrong as it is just incomplete. Because I've said that a word that's far more biblical and you'll hear it far more often if you talk to the Fred Dickiesons or the late Mark Bubek or the Marcus Warner or the Dean Vandermee, you know, some of us that, you know, probably are thought of in some circles at least dealing with this is the word demonization. Demonismeis, the participle, demonisme, the verb and basically etymology is it's it's demon caused passivity. You can't so why try? It's not gonna work for you so give it up. Jesus doesn't love you or he'd protect you.

Karl Payne [00:14:26]:

It's this idea of you can't so just just give up. You know, you can still tell people you're Christians, I suppose. You can believe you are, but don't say too much about it because you're such a horrible example of it anyway. You'll just scare them away. So you'd really be doing God a favor by just loving God, loving your neighbor, but keep your mouth shut. It's as though I've said a demon's plan A is let's keep you away from Jesus for salvation. If they lose on that, then let's keep you as distracted as we can so you don't help other people get there. And so you say what is the demonization? What are we talking about? It's not an ownership.

Karl Payne [00:15:02]:

Jim, you can own a home and rent a room out and if you find out the renter is beating your room up, you can say that was a mistake. I own this home and you're getting out of here. As long as you let the renter keep beating the room up, they are going to keep beating the room up. You were simply renting and you are now a squatter. I don't want you here. Well, I am suggesting in biblical terms, there is only one owner and that is God and and he's the one with all power and everything else is part of the creation including the world, the flesh and the devil. And so when people, you know, get locked up in situations like that, I'll say it's not owner versus non owner, you know, kind of thing. What you're talking about in Ephesians chapter four, I think this is very helpful and very instructive.

Karl Payne [00:15:48]:

Paul is talking to believers, you know, three chapters that are as rich as anywhere I think in the New Testament. Here's who you are in Christ because of Christ, because of his will, by his doing. In in him, you have received everything that pertains to to godliness. You were sealed by the Holy Spirit of of God when you believed. I mean, there's just so much there. And where I'm going with that is in chapter four, he he says to the believers, I want you to, verse 26, deal quickly with your sin. Do not let the sun go down on it. He uses anger.

Karl Payne [00:16:24]:

You could say your lust, your immorality. You could say your fear. You could say your bitterness. You could plug in there anything you want. Why? Verse 27. Why should I keep short accounts? Don't let the sun go down on your sin. You do not want to give any he identifies the devil, the supernatural, tapas. You get your PhD in bible background.

Karl Payne [00:16:45]:

You're probably okay with Koine Greek. Most people aren't. I'm not an expert but I do okay with it. Tapas was a military term that means to give away a place, space or territory of control to your enemy. Who's he identified the enemy? The devil. That's supernatural. And so when someone says that, you know, it's not possible for Christians to get involved with anything supernatural, I would say then why was Paul telling the Christians at Ephesus, quit playing games with your sin, deal with it. Why, verse 27, you do not want to give, most English translations, a handhold, a foothold, an opportunity to the devil? What does it represent? Oh, you're saying that demons could own Christians.

Karl Payne [00:17:25]:

No, I'm not saying that. But I'm saying we can certainly give away places, spaces or territories of control because that's what the word meant. It's not rightfully theirs. What I say in the book, I mean the imagery I try and use is two people are fighting on a, you know, for the top of a hill. And one side wins, throws the other one off, and they'll say, I control this unless you get strong enough to throw me off. Bring in another army. So can Christians be in situations where they have given away places, spaces, or territories of control through unconfessed sin, through habitual sin? I say the Bible says yes. And so what I'm suggesting is the idea of demonization, it's not the extreme that a lot of people try and go and say, oh, you're saying that that Christians are owned by the devil.

Karl Payne [00:18:12]:

Well, that's nonsense. I didn't want to hear you. I'm saying except that's not what most of us that deal with this typically try and say. Yes, there is oppression. It's annoying. Yes, there is demonization. That's when places, spaces or territories have been given away to your enemy. And it's more than annoying.

Karl Payne [00:18:29]:

It's troubling. It's discouraging. Both of them can happen to non Christians. Both of them can happen to Christians. Both of them are talking about degrees of control from something very light and annoying to something that can be very troubling and very discouraging. But neither one of them have anything to do with ownership. Again, there's one owner. That's God.

Jim Spiegel [00:18:55]:

So in your experience, you've had a lot of experiences with people who've been demonized. What are some of the more common ways that even Christians surrender foothold to demonic forces, you say, through unconfessed sins.

Karl Payne [00:19:10]:

That's a great question.

Jim Spiegel [00:19:12]:

What what are some particular examples?

Karl Payne [00:19:14]:

I'll tell you what people would think, and then I'll tell you what I have found to be the reality. What people think is, well, they're they're occultists. I mean, you know, they've gotten involved in in spiritism, in new age religion, in divination, in occultism, whatever. That that would be the most obvious. They've been involved with drug addiction. They've been involved with alcohol addiction, some kind of addictions. That would be very obvious. And I would say, yes, people can get involved.

Karl Payne [00:19:42]:

Christians can get involved with, demonic spirits through stuff like that. But what I have found most often, it's more subtle than that. And the two that I get coming up most often, this is year 43 for me working with this now. What I have found comes up most often is fear. And the second, close to it is bitterness or unforgiveness. I know I'm supposed to forgive uncle Frank even though he raped me from the time I was four to the time I was 12. And I told my parents and they didn't believe me anyway. And at 14, I punched him in the face and said never again.

Karl Payne [00:20:18]:

But I pray to God he dies. He doesn't even deserve to live. Do you pray for uncle Frank? Oh, I do every day. God, clear that sucker. You know, kill him. I don't want anything. So, yes, I pray for him. Kill him.

Karl Payne [00:20:29]:

I hate him. Demons will say, Ephesians chapter four thirty one through 32, they know scripture says you're supposed to forgive others the way Christ has forgiven you. Matthew 18 says in 21 through 35, you're supposed to forgive others when your master has forgiven you so much. How can you hold something against one of your fellow slaves? You're not willing to do that. You accept forgiveness, but you don't give forgiveness. And if you're gonna play that game, then you have just given us papas, a place of space or a territory control. The fear, I think, and that's the one I see most often but it's like one and one a. I think it's because something happens traumatic often.

Karl Payne [00:21:09]:

I'm looking over my shoulder. There's things going on I don't understand. It scares me And even though I'm not saying it, I'm saying I think that whatever this is that wants to hurt me has more ability to hurt me than Jesus Christ has promised to protect me, will protect me. So I live constantly under this. I just feel like there's a cloud over the top of me and I'm afraid all the time. Sometimes it's rational and makes sense but oftentimes it makes no sense at all. And I would suggest that demons will say to that, they won't tell them this but what's going on? And the thinking is you clearly pick and choose. You compartmentalize.

Karl Payne [00:21:44]:

You'll trust Jesus with this part of your life. You won't trust him with that part of his life. You clearly don't think he is lord of your life. You clearly don't think he controls all of your life. So if you're going to yield areas of your life that you're going to allow fear to control you, then don't whine if we say then we're going to keep bothering you. So if someone says, what do you see? I would say fear and bitterness are one and two. What are other ones? You know, envy, anger, lust, immorality, addictions. I mean, there's lots of things like that.

Karl Payne [00:22:17]:

But, the the ones that I see most often usually surprise people because the addictions and stuff most Christians would say that, why would I get involved with that? I love Jesus. But you can have, brother I have worked with more pastors and missionaries than you would ever know, that you would ever believe. They were demonized. But the fear, it's not like Carl I'm involved with other women, I'm involved with addictions. It's like I wake up everyday wondering if my elders are going to fire me. And so men I am wondering whether there's just this fear that hangs over all the time. And they'll say, should I be no. Perfect love.

Karl Payne [00:22:54]:

First John four eighteen says cast out fear. Why are you allowed to control you? Well, I don't know but it does. It it's it's it's not a devil walking up to you in a red suit and saying I wanna bother you. And for someone that loves God, it's four more have to be a little bit less subtle like that. Like, listen, you know what Jim said to you? You know, you did that podcast with him and Jim edited that in such a way that he said publicly, you said things you didn't even say, and he said he was a Christian. Why don't you pray God just smacks that sucker? See, you'd have Christians going, yeah. That makes perfect sense. I'd be upset with him too.

Jim Spiegel [00:23:30]:

I I think you've put your finger on two of the most epidemic, let's say, vices in American, Christianity and then one of them being that the fear. Anxiety is rampant Mhmm. In our society. I mean, that's that's obvious. And, you know, there's clearly, in some cases, seems to me, some biochemical connection, but that didn't explain all of it. There's if, if Peter says cast all your anxiety upon the Lord, then there's there's gotta be some element there where it is a matter of surrender to God and, you know, putting your faith in God is an antidote to the to the to the fear or the anxiety. But forgiveness for sure, I don't hear anybody say, well, your bitterness or your resentment is the biochemical matter. We all agree.

Jim Spiegel [00:24:23]:

No. That's a matter of will as hard as it is. But it just occurred to me while I was jogging this morning, actually. I often pray while I jog or walk, and it just as I was thinking about forgiveness, I began thinking about, popular praise songs, particularly in the evangelical community. I don't think I can recall a single, let's say, popular Christian song or or worship song, praise song about not God's forgiveness of us, there's plenty of that, but about my forgiving other people. As a Christian that I need to, forgive others. Lord, help me to forgive other people. I can't think of a single song about that.

Jim Spiegel [00:25:11]:

Can you? And, maybe it just is because one, it's so hard. And two, we all struggle with it, and that includes every Christian songwriter. We all struggle with this so much. But if it really is a potential foothold for the devil is and that's Paul's language, and, yes, he's talking to Christians, then that really puts a premium on at least praying for the will to forgive. You probably agree with me that forgiveness is usually not just a kind of a snap. In a single moment, you achieve it. A lot of times, you have to pray a lot for this this will to forgive, and God will take away your resentment. That takes a lot of surrender.

Jim Spiegel [00:25:58]:

It's a serious moral challenge. But if this is right, then it really puts a premium on that, doesn't it?

Karl Payne [00:26:03]:

Yeah. I I would agree and I I read like a, a Luke seventeen three. You know, if your brother asks for forgiveness and repents, forgive him. I'm supposed to forgive, but it doesn't mean that if uncle Frank raped my my child that I have to invite uncle Frank to be a babysitter again. In other words, I can keep an eye open and say, yes, I choose to forgive uncle Frank because god forgives me. But it certainly doesn't mean that I wanna say I wanna see a track record with uncle Frank before I ever trust him again for anything. That's a little bit of common sense. It's like fear.

Karl Payne [00:26:41]:

Unhealthy fear? Yes. Healthy fear? Yeah. Son, you're not gonna play on the freeway.

Jim Spiegel [00:26:46]:

Okay. That's good. So, let's get back to the whole matter of, ministering to people who are, say, demonized or experiencing very acute cases of spiritual warfare. There are some who who do believe in spiritual warfare and, take it very seriously. But that nonetheless would avoid studying it or getting involved in a serious ministry, you know, to those who've been demonized for fear that they will become a target of spiritual attack.

Karl Payne [00:27:16]:

Mhmm.

Jim Spiegel [00:27:16]:

And what do you say to them?

Karl Payne [00:27:18]:

I say first John four eighteen says, perfect love casts out fear. Your motivation is not strength. Your motivation is fear. If I learn how my enemy works, they'll get me. So I guess the biblical thing to do is not learn about them and maybe they'll get they'll get Jim instead of me because I just didn't I decided I wasn't gonna learn anything about it. I think that Swindoll has a wonderful response to that in his little book on demonism. And yes, Windall, I think he's the finest preacher in the country. His new commentary series outstanding.

Karl Payne [00:27:52]:

If you haven't picked it up, get it. He read a little book called demonism back in the eighties and he says, can Christians be involved with demons? Yes, they can. He says, I've had to work with it, which was a shock to the people in my circle that would say nobody with credibility believes this stuff is even worth looking at. Well, you start looking at Erwin Lutzer, you start looking at Swindoll, some of the guys say, yeah, it's real. You know, that branch gets sawed off a little bit. But what he said was, in athletics, you you study how your enemy your your opponent works. And he said, if you're a boxer and you say, well, I'll do a better job boxing if I know nothing about how my enemy boxes, I'll just go out and start swinging. He says, your nickname is gonna be canvas bag jack because you are gonna be on the canvas on your back staring up with your brains getting kicked in fight after fight because you think somehow it makes sense to not know how your enemy works.

Karl Payne [00:28:43]:

And he would say, why do Christians think there's virtue in not understanding how the world, the flesh, the devil? And he was focused on the demonic at that point. I would ask why in second Corinthians ten three through five does Paul say that we've been given divinely powerful weaponry that tears down, destroys bondage. That's that's your demonization. It destroys empty speculation against Christ. That's the verbal things that are said that are just dumb and you have to deal with them like a first Peter three fifteen, having answers. But why would I be given divinely powerful weaponry if I don't have to contend with divinely powerful enemies? Why would Ephesians six say after here's who you are in Christ, chapters one through three, here's how it works in the church, chapter four, here's how it works at home and in your employment, etcetera, chapter five. And then after that, don't forget 12, our primary struggle is not against flesh and blood. And here's here's divinely powerful weaponry you've been given for this conflict.

Karl Payne [00:29:40]:

Paul says in there, do everything you can to stand. In other words, don't ignore it. And then we turn around and say, as long as you love Jesus and walk with him, you don't have to worry about it. That just makes no sense. When I in 1982, Jim, when I first started working with this, our person that directed Christian education, I didn't we ignored this. And our director our CEO walks in and says, Carl, I know you mean well. I'm a young guy. I'm in my twenties.

Karl Payne [00:30:08]:

Says, but if you work with this, they'll get you. They'll get you. Leave it alone. I say, so so demons have more ability to attack us than Christ has ability to protect us. Well, I didn't say that. Yeah. That's what you said. So, Jim, I think people that use that as an excuse, that's what it is.

Karl Payne [00:30:28]:

I would respectfully agree to disagree with you on them.

Jim Spiegel [00:30:32]:

Very good. So let's talk about diagnostics. Are there methods for discerning the difference between these sorts of spiritual attacks and simply struggles with distracting thoughts or or biochemical issues? How can we know in a given case that it isn't just natural physiological problems rather than a supernatural demonic interference?

Karl Payne [00:30:54]:

That's a wonderful question. And I I again, I enjoy the conferences and I have so many counselors, Christian counselors that come into those now that will ask me that same question, you know, one one way or another. And and my answer is, well, first, it's not an exact science. There's still too much. I don't know about it or else I just don't understand everything. There's always more to learn, how about that? But I say I can give you some general parameters that I have watched be pretty darn accurate over the decades. But I would say most of the time, when I am dealing with people that are just flat out psychotic, my experience when I'm asked to deal with they're all over the board, you know. I I I talk with them on Monday and they tell me they're the apostle Paul.

Karl Payne [00:31:42]:

I talk with them on Tuesday. They tell me their gang is con. When I am dealing with Christians who have been demonized, I am more inclined to say, you know what? I need to refer you to a really good counselor or therapist. I've had Christians come up to me, Jim, at conferences and say, I know how to deal with physiological issues. I know how to deal with psychological issues. But there's another group of people. It's real. And what I do just doesn't touch it.

Karl Payne [00:32:09]:

And I've said, well, maybe if you're in over your head, it would be as prudent for you to refer them to someone that actually knows how to deal with this stuff as it would be when you tell people, you know, why don't you get out of your lane, preacher, and just stick to preaching the bible and let us handle, you know, the medical and counseling. I'm going, either one of us can get in over our head or outside of our training. And maybe it would be good if we work together if we say the ultimate concern we have is the health and well-being of that person. I had a lady come into my office from our church, wonderful Christian lady, and she said, what does blasphemy mean? What does it mean to be a blasphemer? So I I took her to scripture and I said, well, we can talk about that. She said, well, that that's kind of odd. I I said, what's that? She goes, well, I hear all the time, I'm a blasphemer. I've committed an unforgivable sin so I need to quit telling people I'm a Christian. She said, but I don't even know what the word blasphemy means.

Karl Payne [00:33:07]:

I don't know what a blasphemer is. And when I told the counselor that, they said, oh, that's just self talk and you're you're making that up. And she said, well, why would I make up an accusation against myself when I don't even know what it means anyway? I mean, if I'm the one cooking this up in my brain, wouldn't I think about things that I understand and then say, hey, I've fallen short. And she said, it doesn't make sense to me. I keep getting beat up with something that I don't even know anyway. And she said, I don't think that thought was coming from me. And I said, yeah. I guess you're probably right.

Jim Spiegel [00:33:38]:

So what would be some next steps when you establish that someone is being demonized? What are some keys to understand in effectively addressing such a case? You talk about, how demons obtain spiritual footholds or permissions in a person's life. How can those be canceled? Are they Christian?

Karl Payne [00:33:59]:

I call it three non negotiables to successfully deal with it. Number one is are you a Christian? Number two is will you be honest about what created the pop offs, the places, spaces, or territories? And number three will you fight? Not a stateate. You know, you I'm sure you recognize that, James James four. Resist the devil, he'll flee from you. Six six thirteen, Paul. Do everything you can to stand. Same word. First Peter five.

Karl Payne [00:34:24]:

You know, resist the devil firmly in your faith. He will flee from you. There's a huge difference between resisting and running. Resisting is an imperative, a command and used as an imperative, not always but in these senses, I'm commanded to resist, not to run. And so, what does that mean? In other words, running, I'm never told run from demons and they'll leave you alone. Ask God to help you outrun their fiery arrows. Now you're told resist, stand, put up your shield and you can put them out. So if someone says, what am I doing? I'm saying, first I work through those three nonnegotiables.

Karl Payne [00:34:58]:

Are you a Christian? Well, no, I'm not. Then we're not going to talk about demons and tell you belong to Christ. Because demons don't fear you. They don't fear me. They fear Jesus Christ. They fear Christians because Christ lives in them. But if you're not associated with Christ, remember Acts 19. Jesus we know.

Karl Payne [00:35:16]:

Paul we recognize. But who are you? You don't have to do anything you tell us. You know, you don't belong to the one whose master is greater than ours. Our master is the creator. Their master is part of the creation. Demons understand delegated authority. If your upline is greater than their upline, they'll they'll they'll do what you tell them to do. If that's not the truth, they say we don't have to obey anything you say.

Karl Payne [00:35:40]:

That's, you know, what does it mean to be a Christian? I've had times people came in to deal with demons. We went through the gospel and with tears in their lives say I never knew. I've been to church all my life but I never received Christ as savior. I just figured I go to church, I'm a Christian. I say, I sleep in a barn, I'm a cow. Well, that doesn't work. And I say, neither does the other. There's got to be a commitment to Christ as savior.

Karl Payne [00:36:02]:

But assuming that's happened and assuming a person will be honest, why is that important? Demons will say, if you compartmentalize your sin, Jesus, you can have this but you can't have this. Jesus, you can have my vocation but not who my spouse is going to be. Or Jesus, you can help me pick out my spouse but I'm gonna be a brain surgeon one day and don't tell me anything different. Demons will say, if you're willing to say, Christ, I surrender this to you but not that, they'll say, issues that you don't want Christ involved in don't whine if we start pecking away at those Because you clearly don't, you know, want Jesus involved with that. That's why the habitual sin on the part of a Christian can eventually create hand holds or flip holds, chink it away until they finally feel like this is secure because you won't give that to Christ. So are you a Christian? Two, are you being honest about what opened the doors? Remember first John one nine, Jim, you confess your sin. God's faithful and just to forgive and cleanse. If he's cleansed, it's been dealt with.

Karl Payne [00:37:01]:

It's been dealt with. But I hide my sin. I still need to deal with it. You're saying you're providing a place for me to put a hand hold, a foothold. You're playing games with God. So why should I run from you? And then will you fight? What's your attitude? Are you a victor or a victim? Romans eight says I'm a victor because of Christ. But I'm a Christian who lives like a victim. Then the demons are gonna say you clearly don't believe Christ is gonna protect you.

Karl Payne [00:37:26]:

So we're gonna blast you all day long till you finally roll over and say okay okay. If you promise not to bother me then then I won't I won't tell people I'm a Christian anymore. You know, some theme and variation of that. I'll just say attitude. I can say demons have beat me up and I don't understand the game and how it's played. But because of Christ, I'm supposed to be on the side that wins. I'm supposed to win because he won. So I'm done living like a victim.

Karl Payne [00:37:52]:

I'm done saying, Jim, will you stand with me? Because I'm not strong enough to do it. You approach Christian faith as anything short of I'm a son, I'm a daughter. Luke 10 says I've been delegated authority to tread on, I mean step on demons, not run from them. They will say you're afraid of us. So why should we be afraid of you? So first, I'm looking at those three non negotiables. Christian, honest, and fighting. Willing to fight. Then the second three, and this goes to the heart of what you're saying.

Karl Payne [00:38:22]:

I use three c's to make it easy. Remember, I like transferable discipleship. These were confession, canceling, commanding. I had this discussion yesterday with a 27 year old who was in here talking with me. I've confessed my sin. I say get lost and I get mocked. I said, have you ever asked god to forgive the sin that opened the door for demons to start bothering you? This person, I was quite certain was involved with demons. Well, I've said, Jesus, I'm sorry.

Karl Payne [00:38:51]:

Confession means you agree with God. He was right, you were wrong. You want to go in a different direction. You know, you agree with God. Canceling. What's canceling? I've never even heard of it. That's that Ephesians four twenty seven, the top pause. It's saying, God, the ground, the place, or space that I yielded to a demon.

Karl Payne [00:39:08]:

Not to own me, but I certainly gave them my permission, whether it was purposeful or just ignorantly to start being involved in the area of my life because I wasn't gonna allow Christ to be in control of that. Would you forgive and cleanse the sin that opened that door? And will you cancel any permission they think they have to bother me by slamming that door? If I have taken care of what allowed the door to be opened through the confession and I've asked God, will you cancel any ground, any place, any space demons think they have your permission or my permission to be involved in? I don't want anything to do with them. I I as I stated, I stand against them. Please close that door. Then the third c, commanding. You can command them to leave and they'll go because you took away their right to be there. But if you don't take away their right to be there, they'll say you can pray all day long. You can scream all day long.

Karl Payne [00:40:04]:

You can turn something into a circus all day long, but we have a right to be here because you were the one that was dumb enough to open the door. And if I've been told run from it and ignore it and I'm getting pounded with that, what a surprise we have Christians in our churches who will say, I know I'm supposed to live in victory, but I feel like I'm always on the outside looking in because for me, it's a prison. Just Jesus come back. I hope you come back sooner than later because I'm just tired.

Jim Spiegel [00:40:33]:

So you say that, in order to effectively, address situations of demonization, one does not need a special spiritual gift. And you'd you say you resist, the, self description of exorcist. And

Karl Payne [00:40:53]:

Mhmm.

Jim Spiegel [00:40:53]:

That seems in in keeping with the the the claim you don't need a special spiritual gift for this. Do you wanna talk about that?

Karl Payne [00:40:59]:

Yeah. I would say two things. I would say you never see exorcism addressed as a gift. It's something that's addressed as a byproduct according to Luke 10. I have given you authority to tread upon the serpent scorpions over all the power of the enemy. They shall not harm you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice because spirits are subject to you. Rejoice because your names are recorded to heaven.

Karl Payne [00:41:22]:

Must have been to the 12. No. Must have been just the 72. Well, that's where that was addressed, but he says it. How's he qualified? Who's been delegated authority to step on, tread upon? Says anyone whose name is written in heaven. If you're a Christian, your name is written in heaven. Your name isn't written in heaven in the book of life. You're not a Christian.

Karl Payne [00:41:42]:

So he says to those who have the relationship with me, I've delegated authority. I pull that over to Luke nine, you know, forty nine and fifty when it says John and Peter look at Jesus and say there's someone over there who's casting out demons out of people but he's not part of our 12. Should we tell him to stop? He said, leave him alone. So, two things. One, you don't have to be one of the original 12 or even the, you know, the 72. If your name is recorded in heaven, he says I've delegated authority for you to step on him, so quit running. So no. It's not a it's not a spiritual gift.

Karl Payne [00:42:19]:

It's never addressed as a spiritual gift. It's addressed as maybe part of that, second Corinthians 10. We've been given divinely powerful weaponry against the enemy. Do I use it or do I not use it? And then and then secondly, if somebody says, well, you don't believe it's a spiritual gift? I don't because it's in other words, I can be a a preacher, a teacher, an encourager, a help service, whatever. It doesn't say that only this group can can exercise spiritual delegated authority. It says if you're, you know, if you belong to Christ. When someone says, you know, you want people to have an umbilical cord stuck to you, I go, no. I want their umbilical cord stuck to Christ.

Karl Payne [00:43:03]:

You know, he's the savior. I'm not the savior. I'm just one more missionary. I'm just one more helper. Well, you'll see something like this. When I've had people again coming out of my side of the theological paradigm, if you would, which I don't apologize for. But when they'll say, Carl, if you say that people can actually deal with demons and exorcism is is real or deliverance is real, then you've just opened the door to every kind of wacky thing people say God gave them again. I go, no.

Karl Payne [00:43:32]:

A. But but when people will say, if you grant the one, you have to give them the other. Well, if you believe they can deal with demons, then you have to say and they say they're a healer. I'll say, no. Usually people tell me you're a healer. I'll say, let's go up to Evergreen Hospital and clean the place out. I mean, if you've really got the gift, Paul didn't, you know, and Jesus, they helped everybody they were with. Well, that's not what I'm talking about.

Karl Payne [00:43:54]:

You have to have the faith. I said, okay. I see how that works. If it works, glory to me. If it doesn't work, they didn't have enough faith to believe. So you're safe either way. Well, but yeah. But isn't that what you do with demons? I go, it has nothing to do with gifting.

Karl Payne [00:44:08]:

It has everything to do with delegated authority. Well, did you earn it? No. It's because I'm in Christ. Period.

Jim Spiegel [00:44:14]:

We've been deputized. Every Christian is, a deputy as it were, and we've been endowed with authority and that we can, we can either use or, or not in this, particular context. This is this is, one of the more encouraging aspects of your work, I think, for me, just as I as I read your book, which I highly recommend. So your broader, I guess, life calling is, someone who disciples.

Karl Payne [00:44:43]:

And there

Jim Spiegel [00:44:43]:

are a lot of aspects to Christian discipleship, and this is one important aspect. It's not like this is your whole bag. You know, we don't I don't want people to think that. I mean, you you're a multifaceted Christian minister and discipler, and this is one aspect of it that you want, people to understand.

Karl Payne [00:45:02]:

%. I've said, again, you mentioned when we first started this thing, I've written a little book on Christian essentials as part of my TCT, transferrable discipleship. I've taught that all over. There are churches all over that get a hold of me and buy that stuff. It's not unique because of the bible verses. It's unique because I say if you don't share it in a transferrable way, you're wasting their time and I'm wasting your time. The second book, TCT, Apologetics. What are some basic answers to people that throw stuff in your face? And then number three, TCT Leadership.

Karl Payne [00:45:35]:

How do you move from the pew into actively involved in ministry? And 50 or 60 lessons between those three books. The theme behind all of them, they're biblically based and they're transferrable. All I've said is, yes, the dealing with demons needs to be one more of those arrows in my quiver Just like dealing with the world, just like dealing with the flesh, just like sharing the gospel, just like assurance of salvation, just like understanding why the Bible is nothing reliable. I wanna be able to understand it, and I want to be able to share it. I have had many fine teachers of the Bible over a, you know, number of years of school. I've had teachers that didn't understand a thing about training, which is what I call a disciple discipleship trainer. The teacher says, I'll share the content with you. If you get it or don't get it, you earn the grade, you do or don't.

Karl Payne [00:46:29]:

The trainer, the discipleship trainer says, we're not done till you can do it. If I can do it, you can do it. So let's sit down. Do we role play it? Okay. Let's role play it. Did we not know a biblical basis for it? We just thought, I always thought, I've always heard. Let's find out why there's a biblical basis for this and then how you can share it. So what I'm saying is, I think genuine discipleship goes much further than simple bible teaching.

Karl Payne [00:46:57]:

They're both important, but they're not the same. So yes, yes, dealing with demons just needs to be one more area that I'm trained to say we have a biblical basis and we can exercise that if we choose to. We can run from it if we choose to. Yeah. That's your call.

Jim Spiegel [00:47:14]:

I love the the balanced approach which is very much like what we're doing here with the Kalos Center. You know, there's a strong apologetic cultural apologetic interest in in in teaching, about the the verities of the faith and how we should be living out our faith in culture, understanding the good reasons to believe what we believe, you know. As Peter says, you know, always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope for the hope that you have. We we need to be loving God with all our minds. We also need to be serious about spiritual formation. And, in fact, you if you're not serious about that, you make a mockery of of the gospel in even doing apologetics. We need to be virtuous people in demonstrating the fruit of the spirit as well. I think that, tackling the spiritual warfare issue and I particularly like your approach, really is part and parcel of that.

Jim Spiegel [00:48:16]:

Even if it's if it is a bit, you know, disturbing or, frightening to people at first, once they learn, some of the basics here in terms of how we really have been granted authority by Christ and deputized by him to be able to deal with these, these situations, then that fear should disappear.

Karl Payne [00:48:38]:

Let me give you let me give you a quick verse that gets ignored too many times by my colleagues that that wanna run from this, and I think it's helpful. Second Corinthians eleven one through four. I don't remember giving it a single thought other than, you know, I could read it. I could preach it. But tying it into spiritual warfare, I I didn't didn't give it a thought until after I started learning more about this. I'm your spiritual dad. I led you to Christ. You were walking in purity in your devotion to Christ.

Karl Payne [00:49:09]:

So a, is he talking to Christians? Yeah. He says, I was the one that I'm your spiritual daddy. Well, were they sincere about their faith? Well, he said they had been walking in purity in their devotion to Christ. He then says, I'm concerned for you. Okay. What's the concern? Just as the serpent deceived Eve in her mind. You're being deceived. You teach a Jesus, but not the one I taught you.

Karl Payne [00:49:37]:

You're now involved with spirits other than the one you had received, and you're promoting a gospel different from the one by which you got saved. And then he ends it idiomatically, Jim, saying you're passive. You don't even fight against this. I fear he's pretty good at sharing the gospel. So if he says I led you to Christ, I don't think I can pawn it off and say, well, clearly not believers. We are teaching a different Jesus. I've run into that many times. I've had demons many times tell me their name was Jesus.

Karl Payne [00:50:05]:

And I'll say the one from Nazareth, not that one. They like the name Jesus because Christians are open to it. Romans eight:nine, if you do not have the spirit, you do not belong to Christ. First Corinthians one thirteen and fourteen, when we believe, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. First Corinthians twelve thirteen, by once you were all baptized by one and the same spirit. We were all made to partake in that same we received the Holy Spirit at conversion. He says to this group, one of my concerns is not only you're preaching the wrong Jesus, you're now receiving spirits other than the one you received. Well, who is the one they'd received? The Holy Spirit.

Karl Payne [00:50:45]:

Who's he now saying I'm concerned because you've got yourself it's the other ones. Well, what's what evidence is that? Well, probably that you're preaching an incomplete gospel, not the one I taught, and you're talking about Jesus but not the same one. There is that's like like Ephesians four. No question he's talking to believers and no question he's saying even though they had started out so well, they had allowed themselves somehow to get involved with spirits other than the Holy Spirit, the one they'd received, to the point of it's a different gospel even and it's a different Jesus even. And when he calls them on it in verses 13 through 15, they respond saying, well, they said they were apostles like you. You know, we thought they were good guys. No. When they take you outside of scripture, they're wrong.

Karl Payne [00:51:35]:

13 through 15. When the boss, their boss, parades himself as an angel of light, why are you surprised that his emissaries will parade themselves as apostles or teachers of righteousness? In other words, it's like wake up, be discerning. Was he saying they got themselves involved with spirits other than the Holy Spirit? Yes. He did. Well, I just don't think that Christians could do that. Ephesians four and second Corinthians 11 out of your Bible. Well, I don't think that God would ever allow anything evil to have anything to do with his temple. Then take Romans seven fifteen to 25 where Paul says four times, he's a believer, but there's something evil still at work with him called his flesh.

Karl Payne [00:52:23]:

Or take Galatians five seventeen, the spirit wars against the flesh, the flesh against the spirit. They're in opposition to one another. You may not do the things you choose. He already said in 16, when you walk controlled by the spirit, you don't have to carry out the strong desires of the flesh. He's talking to believers. 17, he says even as believers, there's a battle going on. Well, who wins it? Well, if the flesh wins it, you're gonna see 19 through 21. If the spirit's winning, you're gonna see 22 through 23.

Karl Payne [00:52:49]:

Well, but Paul says the flesh is evil. Yeah. It's no longer in control of your life since Christ lives in your life. You're not a puppet and a pawn to your flesh. As a non believer, you're a puppet and a pawn to your flesh. I'm suggesting if the flesh is evil and it's still part of my life, supposed to be on the back burner, if God can allow the flesh to still be a part of me even though I'm born again, how do I tell people that demons can't be involved with Christians because God would not share anything with his temple with something evil when the flesh, we're told, is evil? So I'm saying, don't use that as a rationalization for saying let's ignore this. It's I go, you better dig a little bit more in scripture.

Jim Spiegel [00:53:33]:

It's good. So especially given that scripture tells us repeatedly that that, we are involved in spiritual warfare. And you look at the the sweep of scripture, I mean, it begins in Genesis three and it runs all the way through Revelation. You've you've seen, the the spiritual war on the the stage of earth and sometimes in the heavenly realms. I mean, maybe the first book that was written in scripture was a book of Job, and there you go. You got right from the outset. You've got, Satan in the presence of God, you know, and then the conversation begins, regarding Job. And by the way, it's God that brings up Job's name, which is interesting.

Jim Spiegel [00:54:12]:

And and then you're off to the races and it's, it's been spiritual warfare ever since. I'd I'd like to close, with this question for all of our guests, and that is, just this. What would you say is the meaning of life?

Karl Payne [00:54:33]:

May maybe I'll give you two ideas. I I will say ultimately it's to know Christ as savior. I would say, if you want something, you know, a little bit more pragmatic, I I think of Matthew 22 where Jesus says he summarizes everything that's been written in the law and the prophets by, oh, what's the goal? To love God with your whole heart, your mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself. So I would say, what's the goal to know Christ, my creator, and to walk with him on a daily basis? I would say, what's the pragmatically? How do I at least impart see that? I would say, by my first priority being loving God, he doesn't get shoved to the back on anything. That's a that's a mistake when he gets replaced by anything. And then to to learn how, progressively, because as you said earlier, I don't think it comes easy to love my enemies. That is not intuitive. You know, that that that's counterintuitive.

Karl Payne [00:55:39]:

But to learn how to love my neighbor as myself. And I would say that most of what I see myself doing on a daily basis is gonna tie into, you know, Christ as savior first, and then is your first priority loving God when you make decisions, and then learning how to to love your neighbor instead of tolerate your neighbor.

Jim Spiegel [00:56:03]:

Very good. Yeah. And I'm sure you'd agree with this, that what you just described really is the, the first bit of business in spiritual warfare. If we are loving God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and that means, doing what we pray when we pray the Lord's prayer and we say, you know, forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us, then you are shielded from a major foothold there. So that really brings us back to what we've been talking about, which is spiritual warfare. And if you're living your life like you just described, that's key. This has been great. I appreciate, all this time you spent with us.

Jim Spiegel [00:56:46]:

This is, really rich and important stuff. And, again, I'd recommend your book on spiritual warfare to all our listeners. It's wise, it's balanced, and important. So thank you, Carl. Thank you, Jim.

Karl Payne [00:57:01]:

Thank you for listening to the Kalos Center podcast. To get notified when we publish a new episode, please subscribe, and let us know what you think by leaving us a review.