Jim Spiegel [00:00:42]:

Welcome to the Kalos Center podcast. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Kalos Center podcast. Our guest today is Michael Ziggarelli. Mike earned his B. A. In Economics and History at Lafayette College and M. A.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:06]:

In Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell University and a Ph. D. In Human Resource Management at Rutgers University. He's held academic or administrative posts at several universities and is currently professor of leadership and strategy at Messiah university. His work in the fields of management and practical theology, law and ethics has appeared in a number of scholarly and popular publications. And he's authored over a dozen books. Many of which concern Christian leadership in various contexts, including business ministry and sports. He and his wife live in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and are in the business of raising 4 children.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:47]:

Actually, they're all grown. I think they're all in their their twenties. So, Mike, welcome to the Kalos Center podcast.

Michael Zigarelli [00:01:55]:

No. Thank you, Jim. It's, honor to be on.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:59]:

Okay. So you've obviously done a lot of work on Christian leadership and what that looks like in professional context, and you can share a bit about that. But what I want to focus on in our conversation today is some recent work that you've been doing on near death experiences, specifically what implications they might have for Christian theology. But, I'd like to start with a couple of personal questions that I posed to all of our guests. And one of these is how you came to faith in the in the first place. When and how did you convert to Christianity?

Michael Zigarelli [00:02:35]:

Oh, well, I was, you know, on my motorcycle on I 95 high on cocaine, driving down the road, hit a pothole, fell off the bike, had a tractor trailer coming at me, and, I said, god, you get me out of this, I'll give my life to you. Truck went over me, wheels on both sides, didn't get a scratch, and here I am. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. You can edit that out if you want. My story isn't nearly that dramatic. It's not near it's it's interesting because it's a conversion story, but it's, it's it's not one of those kinds of of stories. In fact, it's it's not an an apostle Paul Damascus road story at all.

Michael Zigarelli [00:03:11]:

It's more of a Peter go kicking and screaming story. I mean, I I was raised Christian, but quite nominal during my my teen years and, as as an undergraduate in college as well. Just kinda living for myself and very much a cultural Christian. But around my mid twenties or so, I started looking more closely at the faith and asking deeply what do I believe and and why do I believe it and basically, what do I disbelieve as well? And I reached the intellectual conclusion, I guess, that Christianity is true. And so one day, I just decided, I guess I'm need to follow Jesus, and I need to take that intention. I need to to do that intentionally. And then sort of CS Lewis story in a way, you know, he gets on the motorcycle as an atheist, gets off the motorcycle as a Christian, nothing particularly fascinating happened in between. It just like, okay.

Michael Zigarelli [00:03:59]:

Well, this is this is truth. This is reality, and that's kind of the way it was for me as well. But, it but it's had countless implications, of course, you know, as as the faith does. I mean, not just how it's influenced my my character and my choices, my my public and my private choices, but also my closest relationships, as well as the work that I was doing at the time. New academic, sort of a a new intentional Christian. And what what did Christianity really have to do with the things I was teaching and researching? Leadership, management, business, and and our work generally. And that led me down a long and kinda circuitous path as a student of those questions and as a researcher in practical theology.

Jim Spiegel [00:04:42]:

Okay. Very good. I think that's just as dramatic and powerful. A testimony is the one you started with, the fictitious one that, you know, demonstrates the power of the gospel to to turn a life around, as God did with you. So you've touched on this a little bit, but when and how did you come to see doing work in the field of leadership as a significant way to apply your faith?

Michael Zigarelli [00:05:07]:

Yeah. Well, as I began taking my faith seriously, I guess I realized that there is indeed a a direct connection between our faith and our work life. And in fact, everything in my field proceeds from a philosophical foundation as I guess it does in in every field. So my question shifted from essentially what works to what is God's will. All right, so for example, instead of researching and teaching about how to lead effectively, I began teaching, how to lead faithfully. Right? Not just about how how to lead in a way that works, in a way that gets people to follow, but how do I lead in a way that that does in fact honor God. And that's been a 25 year journey of teaching and writing and, and speaking. And and around that same time, I also created a, a personal mission statement, you know, to teach Christians how to live and to lead more faithfully.

Michael Zigarelli [00:05:59]:

To teach Christians how to live and lead more faithfully. That's been my my lens, and it's led me to to give up tenure at a at a fine school and teach elsewhere that was a better fit, better mission fit that is, led me to formalize my theological education at, at Yale and Liberty in their seminaries. And now it's leading me to explore some of the the greatest questions of our existence including, you know, where you wanna go with this interview today, which is the question of what happens after we die.

Jim Spiegel [00:06:24]:

Right. Very good. So you have done significant research in this area of near death experiences is a recent article of yours in the Christian scholars review demonstrates your articles entitled near death experiences and the emerging implications for Christian theology. The whole topic of NDEs has taken off in recent years, both in popular culture and in scholarly circles. So there's been some resistance in the latter realm as critics complain that these phenomena cannot be rigorously investigated for reasons that we'll talk about. But let's start by simply defining our terms. What is a near death experience?

Michael Zigarelli [00:07:07]:

Yeah. Well, it's curious, even after 50 years of research in this field, there's no standard definition for the term near death experience, at least according to some of the top NDE researchers. And if you don't mind, I'll I'll use NDE occasionally as a as a shorthand here, but but one definition puts it really nicely and in plain anguish. NDEs are events that take place as a person is dying or indeed already clinically dead. Events, that take place as a person is dying or indeed already clinically dead. And whether those events are objectively real or imaginary is hotly debated, of course, but one thing's not up for debate, and that is that these experiences are universal.

Jim Spiegel [00:07:50]:

So okay. They're they're universal. How common are they?

Michael Zigarelli [00:07:55]:

Exceedingly common. I mean, reports of NDEs will transcend generations. They transcend world views. They transcend cultures. I mean, they've always been part of the human condition. And as far as their their numeric prevalence, we have some psychometrically sound surveys over the decades that have estimated that between 4 9% of people claim to have had an NDE. Alright. That's on the the lower bound.

Michael Zigarelli [00:08:22]:

Somewhere between 4 and and 9% of the general public. So if you do the math, Jim, I mean, on a on a planet of 8,000,000,000 people, that puts the number of NDEs in the 100 of millions. You know? And and there are a lot of common features across all of these highly prevalent, experiences. Our researchers are unanimous though that that no two of these are exactly alike. But there is this this recurring pattern in the accounts and your audience will have heard of some of these. I mean, the phenomenology or at least the the blissful version of the phenomenology tends to include some kind of combination of, an out of body journey and and seeing one's body from above and joy and serenity and painlessness and traveling through through darkness or or through that that quintessential tunnel to a a place of indescribable beauty. It might include meeting spiritual beings or deceased loved ones, maybe a life review or review of, of one's life, communicating with a a supreme being of light and and unconditional love before maybe reaching a boundary, and then returning to one's earthly body either voluntarily or involuntary. I mean, some people's experience might be 1 or 2 of these elements.

Michael Zigarelli [00:09:37]:

Other people might be nearly all. And and one of the really fascinating things, like, even the blind, even people blind from from birth have reported some of these same elements from their NDEs and and children have too, maybe fewer elements, but they have too. Some differences. I mean, children are a little more likely than adults to meet a deceased grandparent or deceased pet, and they're almost always accompanied into the light by some sort of luminous being, holding their hand. But otherwise, the narrative arc is strikingly similar regardless of their age.

Jim Spiegel [00:10:10]:

So as prevalent as these are worldwide, why is the study of NDEs why why is it been this long before it became such a phenomenon? It wasn't till the late 20th century that this really took off. Why did it take so long?

Michael Zigarelli [00:10:28]:

Well, it's it's, there there are reports, NDE like reports throughout history across, across the world. I mean, it's it's a well known phenomenon recently, for for various reasons. I'll get to that in a second, but, you know, across civilizations throughout history, we've had these, we we've had these kinds of reports. I think modern resuscitation techniques, CPR, defibrillation, intubation, you know, EMS availability, and so on are bringing more and more people back from the brink of death. And so maybe that's why we're getting more NDEs in the last 50, 70 years or so. But, plus, there's probably a lot more people reporting near death visions as well. And and the personalized kinda ubiquitous outlets of social media will amplify these these accounts and carry them to to the ends of the earth. So it may be an accelerating phenomenon, or it may just be an issue of, accelerating reporting of NDEs, but it certainly is exceedingly prevalent.

Jim Spiegel [00:11:32]:

So from an investigative standpoint, what would you say are some of the more important or interesting NDE accounts?

Michael Zigarelli [00:11:41]:

There there are so many. I I guess one way to think about this is that there are categories of these corroborated accounts, at least 3 categories. There are accurate reports about events that happened near the body of a person who was unconscious. There are accurate reports about events away from their body, things that they saw away from the operating room or wherever, And then there are accurate reports about, about deceased persons that that they met. So there are these these three big categories. And then within those, maybe I'll just pick out a couple of the the better known cases that, maybe some people have heard, others others haven't. But, you know, this first category reports about stuff that happens near near the body, those kinds of events. Typically, that's somebody that says they're floating near the ceiling in the operating room during their surgery.

Michael Zigarelli [00:12:29]:

In classic cases like a guy whose dentures were lost, but he knew exactly where they were because, you know, some nurse had pulled them out and threw them into a to a crash cart. Nobody knew where they were. That guy did a couple days later when he when he awoke from his coma. Said that nurse put him in that crash cart. He was exactly right. Somebody floating near the ceiling who who memorized the 12 digit number that was on top of, of one of the, one of the monitors in there. And and she was exactly right about what that monitor was. Or somebody else who who saw a when when she allegedly floated near the ceiling, a red sticker that was on the, on the ceiling fan pointed toward the ceiling.

Michael Zigarelli [00:13:08]:

She was right about that. Somebody saw a 1985 quarter on a cardiac monitor on the top of it. They were right about that or what doctors were wearing or what they were saying or what equipment was used. I mean, most famously, there's this this case of Pam Reynolds, which a lot of people have probably heard of. She was in early 19 nineties in brain surgery. They cooled her down her body down to 60 degrees to do this surgery. Total shutdown of of the brain, monitored it closely, so that there's no brain activity. Even put these primitive earbuds in and had this this clicking in her ears at 95 decibels so that they can monitor whether the brain was doing anything while they're going through surgery.

Michael Zigarelli [00:13:45]:

Obviously, it was not when she was cool to 60 degrees. But notwithstanding, Pam Reynolds saw her her operation. She heard the comments being made. She knew the kinds of tools that were being used in in her, in her surgery. Just stunning corroborated evidence. All of these under the, under the umbrella of accurate reports near the body. So that's one category. If if I could, just real real quickly, I'll go through the other other two categories.

Michael Zigarelli [00:14:16]:

The even more fascinating to some people are, you know, events away from the body. Some people might say, well, yeah, they they knew what was going on in the operating room because there was this residual brain activity that picked it up. But what about, you know, this woman who knew went was went through surgery, but knew that outside on the 3rd floor of the, the hospital, there was a blue shoe, man's left shoe that had a a wear mark over a little toe region and the, and the shoelace tucked underneath the heel. How'd you know that? Well, I kinda floated up there while I was, while I was an unconscious, and I I noticed that. And she was exactly right about that. And another woman with a similar case, she floated up above the the hospital, she claimed, and said that, you know, there's a red shoe on the roof of this hospital. And somebody, you know, incredulous went up, looked for it, and found this red shoe. Or or another case like this, a guy who said that when he was going through surgery, you know, he found himself floating up to the ceiling and then up through the the structure of the building and then into another room where he looked around.

Michael Zigarelli [00:15:18]:

It looked like a hospital room or hospital wing and nobody around. But in all of these rooms, there were people in the beds, but they weren't really people. They were mannequins that had IVs. What a strange dream, doctor. What what do you make of that? And the, you know, the the staff looking at each other like, oh my goodness. How did he know this? Because in the the next floor up, there was a a nurse training center with medical mannequins in there that had IVs hooked up to them. There's no way that somebody should know this. There are people coming back with information they absolutely should not have.

Michael Zigarelli [00:15:50]:

So, you know, that's all in the category of accurate reports at a distance, you know, away from the body. And then there are these other reports of meeting deceased persons, little kids who meet somebody who claims that they were, I'm your brother or I'm your sister. They were never told about them because that sibling died before the patient was born, and they're absolutely right about these things. Right? So I've the hundreds of documented cases like this, highly probative evidence in this case for near death experiences in the case for the afterlife, and it brings us much closer to establishing, essentially establishing proof of this. And the last thing I'll say here is, you know, through it all, the the naturalist position is becoming much weaker. I mean, whatever internal causes they wanna cite for NDEs, you know, whether it is residual brain activity or oxygen deprivation or the anesthesia was wearing off or it's a hallucination or dream, whatever internal causes they might wanna cite for for this, they really can't overcome this externally verifiable information. I mean, it implies an otherworldly explanation, a supernatural one rather than a naturalistic one.

Jim Spiegel [00:17:04]:

Okay. Good. So, you've really anticipated, my next question in some ways, and that is, that there is a criticism that's often leveled by naturalists, or others that are skeptical about these claims that there's a kind of religious bias that, you know, all of those who claim to have had these experiences, they're giving us subjective reports. And, you know, all this is is really a kind of reflection of, religious beliefs that they had in place. And so their expectations regarding what might be experienced on the other side that's impacting the reports that they that they give. What what would you say to that criticism?

Michael Zigarelli [00:17:55]:

Well, a couple of things there. You have the the subjectivity objection and then you have the religious bias objection. You know, what a skeptic will call subjective in NDEs is what a detective or a court of law might call eyewitness testimony. A form of direct evidence that in and of itself can can prove a fact. So, you know, what the skeptics are discounting here and just tossing out a subjective, tossing it out so blively is actually considered compelling evidence in a court. Secondly, with regard to the religious bias, yes, there is some religious bias in some of the research. Basically, starting with a conclusion and and then seeking evidence to support it, or maybe it's just a reflection of their their cultural bias, their upbringing, or what have you. Right? But the same thing is happening with with anti supernatural bias.

Michael Zigarelli [00:18:45]:

Basically assuming or basically adopting, I guess, I should say, the the presupposition that there is no supernatural. Right? So there there must be a natural explanation for everything that happens. Right? The the brain and the gap theory. There's a gap in our knowledge, let's assume that the that the brain did it. It it's happening on both sides, so I say yes. Look for the biases in the methodology. You know? And and and when you find them, throw out the study if you want. The case for life after death does not require those kinds of studies to show that it's more likely than not that some NDEs are real, but I agree with these objectors.

Michael Zigarelli [00:19:22]:

We need to be logical in this quest for answers, not ideological on both sides, the religious side as well as the, the the sort of atheistic scientific side.

Jim Spiegel [00:19:34]:

Very good. So could one supplement your response just now by also pointing to cases of NDEs where what is experienced actually contradicts the expectations of the person who has the experience, say atheists. There are cases of atheists who have NDEs that actually are so powerful as a confirmation of a theism in terms of the what they encounter on the other side that they convert to some kind of theism, be it Christianity or or some other religious perspective. Would that also work as a response to that objection?

Michael Zigarelli [00:20:18]:

Well, sure. That's a that's very powerful because if you're going to object that people just see what they expect to see, And in many cases, they they do because we all see through a cultural lens. So, I mean, that that's something we certainly can talk more about, whether we're all seeing the same thing, but we're interpreting it differently. You know? Some some ancient Greek sees a column of light whereas a Christian sees, sees god whereas somebody from medieval China sees, an emperor, but they're all seeing the same thing interpreting through a cultural lens. It's entirely possible, there. But when when somebody who does not expect to see, say, Jesus Christ in their their MD does see him, and there are plenty of stories like this. I'd invite people to read, maybe, John Burke's most recent book on on near death experiences for for some of these stories. But when what do you what do you make of that? I when when somebody reports something that they they had zero expectation of of seeing that's, that that's a harder one to explain away.

Jim Spiegel [00:21:23]:

Yeah. The, we could also recommend Howard Storm's book, my descent into depth. Howard Storm was an atheist art professor, back in the eighties who had some internal bleeding that that killed him, for I don't know. He was down for several minutes. And, he reports in his book that he experienced Jesus and angels. And he came back, a firm believer in Christianity. It's a that's a powerful testimony along

Michael Zigarelli [00:21:56]:

those lines. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have we have atheists becoming Christian pastors, you know, a couple of those those stories out there. We have a story of a mobster, a guy in a crime family for goodness sake, who comes back from his near death experience, leaves the crime family, becomes a becomes a social worker. They they they let him go and he completely his his life is radically different. Yeah.

Michael Zigarelli [00:22:21]:

There are these these sort of bizarre stories of transformation, but they're they're they're quite compelling. I mean, that that's, you know, it's probably one of the most consistent findings in the research actually is that people come back different and they live differently. And it's it's one of the most observable as well. You know, they they lose their fear of death. You know, I know what's next. So and because I've experienced it, they might lose their fear of life because they're gonna live life to the fullest and not worry about what anyone thinks of me. Some of them return with a radically reformed purpose like you're you're talking about here. And and there's actually some really solid, peer reviewed a level research on this in in medical journals that demonstrates the difference between people who were resuscitated and reported a near death experience and those who were resuscitated and didn't report a near death experience.

Michael Zigarelli [00:23:13]:

How are they different now and in 2 years and in 8 years from now? There's, there there's I mean, it's like test group, control group, and, almost, you know, a very very tight valid scientific experiment there. So good evidence that there's something going on here. And, you know, they they changed lives, a major pillar in this case for the afterlife alongside of the the prevalence of NDEs and the pattern of NDEs as well as these corroborated accounts.

Jim Spiegel [00:23:42]:

Yeah. Yeah. So you have deep and lasting personal impact. Now there's another kind of criticism that comes from, you know, those who are skeptical because of certain theological reasons. And the worry is that NDE accounts may conflict with biblical orthodoxy. In your CSR article, you claim the NDE accounts actually confirm or consistent with important Christian doctrines. Can you review some of those?

Michael Zigarelli [00:24:14]:

Yeah. There's some aspects that are that comport with Judeo Christian doctrine and then, a couple that maybe a little bit off center. But if NDEs are real, right, then that's the premise. Veridical is the the technical term here. If if they're real, then there are several implications that, are consistent with Judeo Christian doctrine. One implication is that a supernatural realm exists, A world beyond our own. And and frankly, for that to be false, then that would mean that all the NDEs would have to be false or imagined, in in some way. Alright? So it's a high probability implication here that there's a supernatural realm.

Michael Zigarelli [00:24:52]:

That that's one. Another implication is that a supreme being exists, whose essence is light and unconditional love. So one of the most common elements in these reports dating all the way back to Ray Moody's 1975 study that, they coined the term near death experience. Every day, people all over the world are coming back from temporary death saying I met god. Alright? And, of course, testimony about god doesn't equal existence of god, but the sheer volume of so many similar testimonies does carry some weight, especially in the absence of plausible alternative explanations that fit the data. So there's the supernatural realm and there's a supreme being of light and love as a couple implications. And another implication would be that there is in fact an afterlife for human beings. Right? Consciousness survives physical death.

Michael Zigarelli [00:25:44]:

There's indeed this this duality of mind and and body as Rene Descartes said 100 of years ago, and there are also heavenly and hellish trajectories on which our essence may proceed after physical death. I mean, there's at least a preponderance of the evidence for an afterlife. In other words, the the the evidence for some kind of afterlife is more likely true than not. It possibly even me meets the, the the higher legal standard of clear and convincing evidence. But the point here is each of these implications flows rationally from the data and comports with Christian theology.

Jim Spiegel [00:26:22]:

Good. So you also know some points of tension between certain common elements of NDE accounts and traditional Christian views. What are some of those?

Michael Zigarelli [00:26:34]:

Yeah. Well, most basically, there's the question of who gets into heaven. Right? Those those reporting a blissful or euphoric NDE were were seemingly on the trajectory to a paradise. And these folks come from all different world views and and belief systems. I wrote down this quote from the handbook of near death experiences. It's from Janice Minor Holden, who is really sort of the the doyenne of this entire movement here, she said this in in summarizing the research. She said people of every religious affiliation have reported NDEs, including Buddhists, Christians of all denominations, Hindus, indigenous religious adherence, Jews, and Muslims, religious nonadherence have also reported NDEs, including agnostics, atheists, and people who describe themselves as spiritual but not affiliated with an organized religion. She goes on to say several researchers have found no relationship between the NDEers' religious affiliation or non affiliation prior to their NDE and either the incidence, contents, or depth of their near death experience.

Michael Zigarelli [00:27:43]:

Now, end of quote there, but that doesn't mean that, NDE evidence conflicts with Christian doctrine of salvation. Not necessarily. I'm not sure that the the research conclusions need to be interpreted that way, but without a doubt, they do highlight these these conclusions do highlight an apparent tension, which leads some Christians to be wary of NDE stories, and even rejecting them altogether as counterbiblical.

Jim Spiegel [00:28:12]:

Okay. Good. So what else? What other points of tension might there be?

Michael Zigarelli [00:28:17]:

Well, I mean, it if if a blissful NDE indicates that someone's on route to heaven, right, and and if if people from almost every worldview are reporting this sort of blissful experience from their NDE, then, you know, our question becomes how broad is the, the the scope of salvation. Right? Or or more colloquially, you might might say it as, you know, what do NDEs mean for who's in and who's out of heaven? Well, one possible inference from the NDE data is there might be a, what you might call a wider aperture to enter heaven than is traditionally understood in Christian theology. And that not, you know, you know, the the the gateway, so to speak. It is not the unbounded aperture of universalism, given the, the reports of hellish NDEs. Can't be that unbounded aperture, and it's not probably not the the anything goes aperture of pluralism, you know, as the data can't disprove that Jesus opens the way. So it's not like all roads lead up the the mountain to God. But at the same time, the NDE evidence does imply that there might be an aperture that's less narrow than this this narrow gate is sometimes interpreted to be by, by Christians. Right? It really invites a fresh conversation about the extent to which, you know, god's grace will extend to the world through the resurrection.

Jim Spiegel [00:29:39]:

Yeah. I tend to see it the same way. I find it interesting, sometimes confusing that while you have many NDE accounts, that confirm a a doctrine of hell of some kind, You also have others that that seem to point towards universalism or people who will will say, you know, that this is what I learned on the other side is that everyone is saved. And I'm sure that just the the very fact that there are conflicting reports on that score gives some people pause.

Michael Zigarelli [00:30:18]:

Yeah. Well, but, you know, ever since academic study of NDEs began in 19 seventies or so, you know, literature has described these, you know, how about hell, these distressing near death experiences, not just the pleasant ones. And that yeah. I mean, they range from falling into a dark abyss to terrifying events, demonic beings and so on. And it's it's hard to get percentage estimates on that because people are reluctant to to share their their trauma. But the, some of the best estimates we have trying to factor in the reporting bias are maybe a percentage possibility in the the mid to high teens of all NDEs. And what whatever the actual number is though of these these hellish experiences, it appears to be non zero. Right? And that's in accordance with Christian theology, and it's a direct empirical contradiction of universalism.

Jim Spiegel [00:31:06]:

Good. So to what extent, if at all, should Christians be willing to allow NDE accounts to impact their theological convictions or or how they interpret certain biblical passages?

Michael Zigarelli [00:31:19]:

Yeah. Yeah. That that is great question. Also a hotly debated question. I think the antecedent question to all that is how do we discern truth? Right? Of of course, Christians discern truth through scripture, but they may also be aided in that interpretation by reason and by tradition as well. You know, how a passage has been interpreted by countless smart people throughout history as well as by our experience and and observation, you know, as with science. Right? I I'd say that things like reason and tradition and experience are are subordinate in this process. They're kinda hermeneutical adjuncts, if you will, but I think they're essential.

Michael Zigarelli [00:32:01]:

And, you know, I yes. I do recognize the, the potential slippery slope, if you will, of using experience as a as a filter here, as a hermeneutical filter. I mean, it can lead us down that path to subjectivism, but it's important that we distinguish between these private experiences or 1 or 2 things that people experience, which I don't think is a source for theology versus the more public experiences, almost the universal human experiences, which NDEs are in this category, which which I think can be a source for theology. So, you know, applying all that to these experiences that we call near death, question becomes, you know, where are they in this experiential continuum? Is it the the minority, tiny minority? Is it universal? They're somewhere in between while they're growing in number, they're growing in consistency. So as a result, I think they're also growing in their ability to legitimately inform theology.

Jim Spiegel [00:32:53]:

Good. So if we approach this scientifically and the, the current, you know, state of research, on NDEs is becoming more, rigorous, scientific and its approach. We could look at it as, maybe similar to certain other fields of study in the sciences, certainly down through scientific history. Certain findings have impacted how we interpret certain biblical passages, whether we're talking about the creation story in the early chapters of Genesis or that account, I think in the book of Joshua, there's, you know, a declaration that for 24 hours, the the sun stood still. And and many Christians down through history, theologians, biblical scholars took that to be more or less directly strong biblical evidence for geocentrism. But with the advance of, astronomy, and now today, you know, I think, we all agree or most of us anyway, that well, what would the biblical writer was providing there was a kind of, phenomenological description, right? That is consistent with Helios centric view because it's an indirect way of reporting something about the rotation of the Earth or or just this that, you know, from the experience or the point of view of the people at the time, the sun didn't move. And it was miraculous. And who knows how God did it, but it's not really evidence for geocentrism.

Jim Spiegel [00:34:36]:

So maybe as NDE research continues, it can provide another pool of data that can impact how we interpret biblical passages, so long as we don't do so hastily.

Michael Zigarelli [00:34:52]:

Yeah. No. That that's a really trenchant, point you're making here, I think. I mean, you think back 400 years or so to Galileo, you know, what was his high crime that got him, essentially sent home for the rest of his life? He was on house arrest for his whole life. Why? Well, because he proved the Copernican theory mathematically that the earth rotates around the sun rather than the other way around. Church didn't like that. Right? The church said, no. Actually, what we way we've interpreted scripture is the earth is the center and everything and it's static and it doesn't move.

Michael Zigarelli [00:35:25]:

And, yeah, obviously, he he wasn't saying the Bible's wrong. He's saying our interpretation of the Bible is improvable. Right? Well, some of these NDE researchers I don't know how you feel about this. I think we can get your perspective on it. Some of these NDE researchers might be the Galileo's of our day in a way if they're coming forward and saying, look, we're just interpreting the data here. Maybe your interpretation of scripture is is improvable. Here's what we've observed, and it seems to be a pretty compelling case.

Jim Spiegel [00:35:52]:

Mhmm. Yeah. Again, it wouldn't be the first time in the history of science that new data has shown us or revealed to us certain assumptions that we were making that we didn't even recognize as presuppositions we were bringing to experience, that are questionable. Right? That, well, well, maybe this assumption we're making is the problem. The problem isn't, some false claim in scripture. The problem is not the data that we're getting from science. It's the assumptions we're bringing to our interpretation of scripture. That's a lesson that has had to be learned and relearned over the centuries.

Jim Spiegel [00:36:37]:

Hasn't it?

Michael Zigarelli [00:36:38]:

Well, yeah. I get a lot of pushback from from Christians when I speak about these issues. Mhmm. I do. I mean, preached on this, this summer and, you know, some people were intrigued by it. Other people I mean, it's 1 or 2 left the church. The pastor got more pushback that week than he'd ever gotten, you know, in his, 10 years at, at that particular church. Why are you bringing in people like this, talking about heresy, talking about things that are absolutely satanic? The clearly these NDEs can't be true because they contradict the Bible, etcetera, etcetera.

Michael Zigarelli [00:37:10]:

So there were Christian skeptics and I think we need to, to to have that conversation. And then there are atheistic agnostic skeptics as well and and other types also. But, you know, as a social scientist, I'm just trying to come at this dispassionately kind of as a detective. Let's look at the data and follow it where it leads.

Jim Spiegel [00:37:29]:

Have any of your own theological convictions changed as a result of your research in this area?

Michael Zigarelli [00:37:35]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, if anything, they've been solidified. I've been looking at this question for about 3 years now, sort of deeply. And I mean, there'd been lots of confirmatory evidence that we continue on after physical death. You know, it's something I've always believed, but I mean, now we have some pretty strong data that points in that direction. It's kind of the way I felt after reading, Lee Strobel's case for Christ. Alright. I have I believe Jesus is divine, but now we have data driven evidence here, really strong, airtight case nearly pointing people to the most reasonable conclusion that Jesus Christ is in, in fact, the the divine son of god.

Michael Zigarelli [00:38:15]:

Right? So at the same time, as much as this is, confirming my, my my former beliefs and and, and bolstering them, it's causing me to think a bit more deeply about the nature of god, about how much he really loves us, and how he wants each of us to to be with him now and forever. So it really it sent me back in a number of ways, and I I hope that, you know, others will take a a fresh look at their faith as a result of it too.

Jim Spiegel [00:38:45]:

Yeah. I find that very encouraging. In fact, this seems at least with regard to the positive, blissful NDEs, it seems a nearly universal aspect of this experience of unconditional love. Right? That you get that over and over again, that can't help, but be encouraging. In fact, people who have this experience struggle to put this into words, it seems almost ineffable that they will it will speak in in in very hyperbolic terms about how imagine the greatest experience of love that you've ever had and multiply that by 10,000. Right? They do their best to try to articulate this. But one thing is for sure is that this the experience is just overwhelmingly powerful, and I don't see how that could be anything but encouraging.

Michael Zigarelli [00:39:43]:

Well, it's it's certainly should be encouraging. At the same time, if it contradicts our our previous beliefs, then, you know, some people are going to to clearly push back against it. But I I really think that believers should see this as an apologetic opportunity rather than a a as a threat. I mean, increasingly in, you know, especially in the western world, people have kind of folded their arms and cleared side eyed at arguments based on holy books or religious tradition. Right? I mean, that's, not not not Christians. This is not the others who kinda looked at things that way and to more and more people, you know, none of this religious stuff is considered knowledge. You know, it's merely faith or it's opinion or it's it's preference. And so from their perspective, it's basically, you might call it inadmissible evidence in this case for life after death, or God or or anything supernatural.

Michael Zigarelli [00:40:40]:

And that's why that's why so many of our theological arguments all often fall flat with this audience. Either the bible says I mean, essentially ends the conversation. And the same thing with, you know, god says or Jesus says or the Vatican says or anything else that others are gonna interpret as as dogmatic religious grounds for belief. But Christians, I think, might benefit from a more, and we call it penetrating apologetic. It begin with the rational worldview of the skeptic to offer empirical arguments for the afterlife. You know, for example, arguments like here are three lines of evidence for life after death. Right? And using the NDE evidence that way or something along those lines. Right? With some audiences, that might even become the ultimate apologetic.

Michael Zigarelli [00:41:24]:

Why? Well, because it respects their assumptions about epistemology. You know, their assumptions about legitimate grounds for knowledge and for belief, and that's not to to discount the value or the truth of the scriptures. It's simply to suggest a shrewder and and and more innocent approach to pick up on on Jesus' words. And the same thing that the apostle Paul did in Athens talking to the, the the Greek philosophers of his day. You're taking a a shrewder approach with them rather than telling his Damascus road story or going through the Jewish scriptures or something like that. Point is that with some people, the science of life after death may be a better starting point than the the scriptures on life after death. And that science suggests it's at least more likely than not that we survive our physical death.

Jim Spiegel [00:42:13]:

Yeah. And connected with that, I was having a a conversation with JP Moreland in an earlier episode about how NDEs also confirm what is the predominant historic Christian view of human nature, that there is something supernatural about us. Call it mind body dualism, but, or whatever. There's, there's a spiritual aspect to us. That's irreducible and that's confirmed by these NDEs where you have actual thinking and experiences, perceptions that happen independently of brain activity. You know, in cases where there's a a a corresponding flat EEG, that certainly seems to confirm a kind of mind body dualism.

Michael Zigarelli [00:43:02]:

Well, it it sure does. And and in in most of these these cases, you're gonna have a flat EEG. It's not it's not often measured because they're trying to save this person's life, so they're not measuring brain activity. But, typically, the brain shuts down 18, 20 seconds after the heart stops, and we stop breathing. So we got clinical death, and then the brain shuts down shortly thereafter, but you have people reporting several minutes of of memories after that. They correspond to whatever's going on in the operating room or what have you. It's just it's exceedingly compelling evidence of of this dualism, right, of of nonlocal consciousness as as some people call it that, you know, our body is one place, our mind is someplace else, soul, psyche, whatever you wanna call it. It's it's someplace else.

Michael Zigarelli [00:43:47]:

Right? And so that is, it it's a debilitating blow to physicalism.

Jim Spiegel [00:43:53]:

Mhmm.

Michael Zigarelli [00:43:54]:

Alright? Debilitating blow to to to atheism, even to to agnosticism. If, you know, we we start seeing that they're really that this dualism is in fact real and demonstrable.

Jim Spiegel [00:44:05]:

Which could explain in turn some of the reluctance in certain quarters, certain scholarly quarters to even acknowledge this whole domain as a legitimate area of research. Right? If they perceive a threat to the to their worldview or the metaphysical assumptions that underwrite, you know, their their research program is physical is, you know, they're not going to be motivated to to pursue this in an objective way.

Michael Zigarelli [00:44:33]:

Well, the scientific starting point, naturalism, physicalism, you know, the mind and the body are one thing, not 2. And so they work together and and they die together. Right? And, it's but but that's gonna be my starting point, and that's gonna be my presupposition throughout my science. That's a pretty unscientific assumption that I'm bringing to the table. Right? Why are we putting those kinds of constraints on? What are those kinds of of parameters, and insisting that the supernatural does not exist? So I that's that that's a real challenge. That that's a real problem, and it should be cross examined, I think, by, by thoughtful folks who are seeing these data for for what they are. I mean, genuine evidence for for life after death.

Jim Spiegel [00:45:14]:

No matter what our worldview, we're all susceptible, to allowing our scientific research to be, you know, biased in favor of certain metaphysical commitments. And that's why, again, no matter what your worldview is, it takes great circumspection, self control to conduct your research in a in a fair and as objective a way as possible. You know, whether you're super religious or, you know, a hardcore naturalist. One other thing, there are also doctrines, in my, you know, kind of informal study of this topic, I've noticed certain doctrines, certain Christian doctrines, not only get confirmed, but at least the way I conceive of them gets enhanced. And here's an example. The whole idea of divine judgment. I think it's very common for Christians to take a kind of wooden view of that and think about, well, people will be standing before God and he's going to make these declarations and for good and bad, you know, for better or worse, for reward or chastisement. And it's as simple as that.

Jim Spiegel [00:46:38]:

But what you get in a lot of these NDE accounts. And again, this is this is very common as you know. People reporting that when they do a life review, which seems to be again, according to the reports, something like a video or maybe. Holy gram or something, but they're seeing it all in living color and kind of reliving it, but not just from their point of view, but they're, they report experiencing the different events in their life from the standpoint of perspective of all the other people who were involved. So if you lost your temper at a certain point, with your children or your parents, you know, lost their temper with you when you were a child, you're experiencing their emotions from all their perspectives. And that means both, in response to the good things you did and the bad things you did. And so, you know, if this is how it works, it's a much more rich, full bodied, existential kind of experiential version of divine judgment than, you know, most people had ever imagined.

Michael Zigarelli [00:47:57]:

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And and many people who say they've gone through a life review, come back saying, yeah, I, I saw everything I ever did and everything I ever thought and everything that other people who were affected by that were worth thinking and feeling at the time. But even in my worst moments, this divine being before me communicated nothing but unconditional love and acceptance. Yeah. That would send you back to the woodshed on this question of god's judgment as you're talking about here and what that really entails and what that really looks like when we're on the other side.

Jim Spiegel [00:48:35]:

Very good. Well, this has been great. I I like to conclude each of our conversations now with a question that, again, it's more personal, and that is on your view of the meaning of life. And in this case, I'd like you to, kind of reflect as you answer this question on your view of the meaning of life and how your your study of NDEs has impacted your view on the meaning of life.

Michael Zigarelli [00:49:06]:

Yeah. Okay. And with a real softball question here, What what's the meaning of life? Well, look, there there are straight up theological answers like, yeah, what's the meaning of life or what's to glorify god and enjoy him forever. Right? Right from the Westminster catechism. Or there are these these old testament answers like, you know, fear God and keep his commandments, for that's the whole duty of of mankind. It's the end of Ecclesiastes. And then there are new new testament answers to the meaning of life, like, you know, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, which Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, or or to continue with Jesus. Great commandment.

Michael Zigarelli [00:49:40]:

Right? Love god with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. It's gonna echo of the old testament, codified in the new testament. Right? So we have all these different varieties, all these different versions of the meaning of life that I find attractive, but I'm also attracted to, as as you were just saying here, what we're learning from the data, from these eyewitness testimonies, what people are saying when they return from an NDE and they had this life ex this life review, this panoramic movie or holograph that they've seen, this highlight reel displayed by this, this spiritual being that they refer to as as god. And they say that what was emphasized there and this is going to be germane to the whole meaning of life thing. What was emphasized in that life review wasn't their worldly achievements, but the times when they cared well for other people or when they neglected to do so And they come back thinking, you know, it may be the expressions of love that matter most in life and leading them to, to infer after, after an NDE that that love is in fact the true meaning of life and should be their priority from from that point forward. Now why are we here? Well, to love people well and to keep god at the center of our lives, they might say on the back end of a near death vision. You know, a lot of the rest of what we do, it's just a monument to our own ego. But bottom line, the NDE evidence here aligns quite closely with what Jesus said when asked what's the great commandment.

Michael Zigarelli [00:51:07]:

You know, love god, love people. It's about as distinct as it gets on this timeless question of the meaning of life, and it's that's kinda straight from the red letter credibility of of Jesus himself. But lastly, you know, as far as the application to my work and career and how it's all all connected, I think this principle fits really well with, a reminder that I've kept close to my heart from the, the old testament book of Micah. He the old prophet writes, never again worship the work of your own hands. Never again, worship the work of your own hands. If if the meaning of life really is to love God and to love people, then our work and our accomplishments need to be the means to those ends rather than, an end in themselves. And, yeah, that that might be common sense, but perhaps, you know, unfortunately, it's too uncommon in practice, at least in an American culture. So, hopefully, that answers answers your question, but that's kinda where I've converged at this point based on the scriptures and based on the, the the the science of NDEs that I've been observing.

Jim Spiegel [00:52:14]:

That's great. Yeah. And it's really just what we would expect or hope for given the recurrent biblical message that God is love. Right? There's really nothing surprising there. It's a nice reinforcement of what we should have known all along.

Michael Zigarelli [00:52:29]:

Amen.

Jim Spiegel [00:52:30]:

Well, thanks, Mike. I appreciate this so much, and, God bless you and your continued work.

Michael Zigarelli [00:52:35]:

Well, thanks. Thanks for your ministry, and, you know, I'll be listening. All all the best with this new endeavor of yours.

Jim Spiegel [00:52:41]:

Alright. Thank you, brother. Thank you for listening to the Kalos Center podcast. We gave you our thoughts. Now let us know what you think. Email us at podcast@kalos.center.