Eric Johnson [00:00:00]:

What if parenting isn't just about we need to raise kids, but if actually God's larger agenda is that God wants to use the parenting experience to help bring healing and sanctification into our lives in a much deeper way than we would have imagined without the gospel. It's not me being the lord of my children as much as it is my dear heavenly father drawing me into a way of seeing my calling as a parent is to lay down my life for my kids.

Jim Spiegel [00:00:42]:

Welcome to the Kalos Center podcast. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Kalos Center podcast. Our guest today is one of my favorite people, Eric Johnson. Eric earned his PhD in educational psychology at Michigan State University. He taught for 10 years at University of Northwestern. He was professor of pastoral care and taught counseling for 17 years at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And he went on from there to teach at Houston Baptist University for 5 years.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:22]:

Eric was the first director of the Society of Christian Psychology and has been doing pastoral counseling weekly for over 25 years. He's counseling weekly for over 25 years. He's written over 60 peer reviewed journal articles, many of which address what a distinctly Christian version of psychology and counseling looks like. Eric has authored or edited several books, most notably his Foundations for Soul Care, a Christian Psychology Proposal published in 2014, and God and Soul Care Therapeutic Resources of the Christian Faith published in 2017. Both of these books are highly acclaimed. Eric is also a close personal friend going back now some 3 decades. We were both graduate students at Michigan State University in the early nineties, and we've supported each other professionally and personally ever since. As John Lennon once said about his bandmates, I can say about Eric and me, we are so close.

Jim Spiegel [00:02:21]:

We are practically friends. So, Eric, my friend, welcome to the Kalos Center podcast.

Eric Johnson [00:02:28]:

Thank you, Jim, so much. It's a delight to be here. I think I'm I'm just gonna say, you know, we're both in similar places vocationally and that we're both starting nonprofits, these days. And so, yeah, it's just a joy to be with you and, join you in this podcast.

Jim Spiegel [00:02:48]:

At the top of the show, Eric was talking about Christian parenting, and we'll get into that a little later in the show. What I'd like to do first is to jump right into the subject of Christian psychology and hear from Eric on some of the most pressing issues today in regards to doing psychology from a Christian perspective. Your book, God and Soul Care, explores what what you call therapeutic resources in Christian theology, which, you know, as we hear from those historical voices, what we're getting from them is pointers to and and applications of Christian theological truths. You go right to those, you know, historical figures who have, done that as well. But what specifically are those therapeutic resources in Christian theology? What what are you talking about there? Can you can you talk about some of those resources and how they serve to make your approach distinctively Christian?

Eric Johnson [00:03:49]:

I think I I want to make sure that I that I address this one point before I answer your question. One thing that's misleading about the label Christian psychology, is I think some people assume that it's gotta be distinctly Christian in every respect, and that turns off a lot of people because there's so much good research has been done by non Christians that isn't distinctly Christian. And I would never want to say that we ought to throw that out because it's not distinctly Christian. On the contrary, there it doesn't have to have a little Jesus symbol for it to belong to God. God is the author of all of reality, and so everything that's true and good and beautiful in in in the created order and beyond belongs to him is he's the source of it all. And so it it for that reason, to say it's a Christian psychology is, is also to say that part of my job as a Christian psychologist is to read widely and to to enjoy all the good deliverances of secular psychology and to claim them for for God to whom they belong. You know? Thanks for asking the question you're asking, which is where, you know, so how is it different? And it's not different in most respects, I would say, in terms of the, you know, the quantity of information that belongs to the to psychology. However, I would say where it does differ is at the heart of the project of a psychology at the, you know, at the worldview level, at the deepest of levels.

Eric Johnson [00:05:20]:

At the heart, the the issue there is the heart is so influential to the rest of the project. So, you know, yeah, it's true in a technical sense. Maybe it's only 10 or 20 percent of Christian psychology is different from secular psychology. But that 10 or 20 percent is like worth, you know, 80 to 90% in value because it it shapes the way you view human beings. It shapes what's important compared to the, you know, the millions of facts, the psychological facts that are out there that are you know, they have their place, but they're not as significant. So, anyway, what what am I getting at? Well, God, maybe I'll say in particular, Jesus Christ is the lord of psychology. It belongs to him. He's the source of it.

Eric Johnson [00:06:07]:

It's his wisdom that we've discovered. It's like, you know, it's not possible for a psychologist to discover anything that God didn't first create, you know, and then, you know, in a way. So that's that's super important. And then I think in in terms of the the field of counseling, psych, you know, psychotherapy, I I think we wanna say that Christ is the, you know, the ultimate physician of souls, and that's a that's a deep kind of theme that you find in the history of the Christian tradition. The deepest healing of the soul occurs through being found by by Christ. Like, Christ is the the source of all good in the universe, common grace, for example, that the common grace that that that happens as a result of the use of medication or the you being in relationship with a really kind and gentle non Christian therapist. A lot of good happens around the world. So, he's he is the physician of souls, even working with people who don't know him in a in a mysterious and beautiful way.

Eric Johnson [00:07:12]:

But, there's a place where Paul makes mention of that, God is the source of everyone's gladness of heart. And just to think about that for a moment, you know, that, you know, all of us, I think, we're all we're all the beneficiaries of so much of God's generosity, including whatever benefits we've gotten from secular therapy in our lives. And a a few other thoughts that I think are super important to a distinctly Christian approach to psychology, One of them is the relational triangle. So the way that I think about that is, so there's me as a self, as an individual human, but I can't understand myself apart from my relationships with other humans. Those that I grew up with, those that are a part of my community, whatever that means, and then a large more largely, you know, the the culture that I grew up in and then, you know, the human race. But so I can't make sense of myself apart from my communal system. A modern psychology is is notable because it's so individualistic and, there's a there's a liability there that that Christianity, I think, offers account a corrective for. But, also the most important part about the triangle is is that at the at the top of the triangle is the triune God, father, son, holy spirit in whose image we are.

Eric Johnson [00:08:29]:

And and and we can't understand ourselves apart from God that the triune God. And so the relational triangle is sort of the the relational backdrop, I think, for all good Christian theorizing and practice. Also, Christianity emphasizes that humans are whole beings, that we are body soul unities, and that the soul, though it the way can be fragmented by the by fallenness, and sin, it's in God's intention that it be one thing just as God is 1. And, it's also the case, however, that human beings are we have to be understood hierarchically and not, one dimensional reductionistic approach, reducing us to just bodies or to bodies that, immaterial quality called a mind to them. I think a richer view we get in the Christian tradition that that that our bodies are not add ons as the way Descartes kind of suggested, but, but but we are body souls and and and that our our embodiedness is is foundational to who we are. But I do wanna distinguish I wanna make a distinction, not not a division between our embodiment and then also our psychological quality, or our our immaterial quality, the soul that we are, they're they're they're a unity, but they can be differentiated. And I think the soul could be helpfully differentiated by distinguishing that there is a psychosocial dimension to our lives, which encompasses, you know, all of the capacities that we have, our our our mental, our emotional and and volitional qualities that all human beings have in common. But I wanna distinguish that from a dimension, the ethical dimension, that we're also ethical beings.

Eric Johnson [00:10:30]:

And and I don't I think modern psychology has often lost sight of the ethical dimension because they kind of say that ethics is values, and it's not scientific. And I that's that's false. It's a false conclusion. But, but it's because of that, then they end up not historically in the last 100 years, never get around to talking about ethics.

Jim Spiegel [00:10:52]:

That's great. You mentioned the importance of, our embodiedness, which overlooking that or downplaying it has been a problem since the beginning of Christian history, right, in the ancient gnostics. I mean, that that even predates Christianity by far, and it seems like it's just been a recurrent problem in the history of the church. A couple of resources that we could probably both of us recommend to our listeners, One popular, one more scholarly, Nancy Piercy's book, Love Thy Body, I think is a wonderful, very nontechnical resource on this issue. And she notes how a low view of the body is at the root of so many of the problems we're seeing in contemporary society, with regard to everything from, abortion to, thinking about gender, human identity, even things like prostitution and physician assisted suicide. So many of these things go back to a low view of the body, which a robust Christian theology is there to correct.

Eric Johnson [00:12:01]:

Yes.

Jim Spiegel [00:12:01]:

Right. That's just one example. And then, Pope John Paul the second wrote this magisterial work, on the theology of the body. It's about a 800 page tome that is arguably the the most, important, significant, insightful work on human embodiedness ever penned. Most people don't have time to dig into all of that, but Christopher Wright has written a nice 200 page introduction to the theology of the body. Whether or not you're Catholic or or Protestant, any Christian's gonna benefit from this. It's profound, and I'd highly recommend that, as well as sounds like you would as as well.

Eric Johnson [00:12:48]:

Always.

Jim Spiegel [00:12:49]:

So let's take a a little bit of a turn to, kind of a practical application of all this. Can can you provide us with a concrete example of a counseling strategy to illustrate a Christian psychology approach to psychotherapy.

Eric Johnson [00:13:05]:

Yeah. And if I can, be a little dastardly, maybe, and do a little bit of advertising. It just so happens that the nonprofit that that I'm involved with is called the Christian Psychology Institute. And one of the things that we're mainly focused on is training counselors of mental health professionals that are Christian how to bring Jesus into their sessions because that's left out. Of course, it's left out of all secular therapy. But a lot of Christian therapists wanna know more about that, and we're gonna be training that. We also wanna help pastors become more well informed about their resources, their own tradition. They have more to offer than they might be aware of, to but but they, you know, they probably could benefit from a little bit more understanding of, human development and neuroscience.

Eric Johnson [00:13:53]:

You know, we we try and provide some of that training for them as well. But so this would be kind of a standard sort of strategy that I've used countless times with counselees and and with myself, and there's a wonderful passage in Romans chapter 6 that that emphasizes our union with Christ in his death and his resurrection. And beginning there, I will sometime let's say somebody is really struggling with a strong sense of shame. They just feel like they're inadequate, that that that that they, they're they're they're not worthy of being cared for, well. And, you know, after meeting with them for a number of weeks, and and I and I and I have this growing sense that we've talked about it somewhat that they just they're just weighed down by this sense of shame. And, you know, shame happens to be the I think it's the first negative emotion, mentioned in the bible. Chapter 2 refers to shame and chapter 3 as well, very symbolically by Adam and Eve hiding. And all religions and and all secular forms of therapy, one way or another, are trying to address shame.

Eric Johnson [00:15:07]:

So how how would a Christian address shame? Well, one one way and there's a 1,000 things we can do, and I might ask them to close their eyes. And and I might take them through a little body relaxation exercise trying to lower their sympathetic nervous system arousal, which is gets aroused and intensified by a shame. And then in in a way, what I'm trying to do is help them to get into a meditative state. I think Christian meditation is is a Christian spiritual discipline for therapy par excellence. And then I'll ask them maybe to to to talk about what maybe we were just previously talking about, assuming that they were talking about something that was making their shame rather salient. And I might ask them to go back to that, sense of shame that they were talking about. And, you know, Christian therapy is sort of a 2 edged sword. I think all therapy is trying to help promote well-being, but in order to do that, it's it's essential, a part of most kinds of therapy that I'm I'm aware of and certainly Christian therapy the way I think of it is that we, but we we need to engage the the our exposure to fallenness in the history of our stories.

Eric Johnson [00:16:19]:

All of us have been exposed to fallenness and and and we've been exposed to shame. We've had our shame activated our lives. And I would guide the person to, okay, well, what why don't you think about what we were just talking about again in a fresh way for the next minute after they've done that for a while, I might say, and try and symbolize, you know, where is that feeling of shame in your body? Because most of our strong emotions are experienced in in our in our bodies. That's one reason why the word heart is often associated with our emotional experience. But so I'll say, you know, we are in your body and they usually are able to identify a place in their body where they're feeling it. You know, is can you think of a symbol that might kind of nicely represent that feeling of shame? And maybe they would say, yeah. It's like a black rock that I I feel in my chest or in my stomach or whatever. And then and then also say, let me pray for us if you're okay with that.

Eric Johnson [00:17:19]:

And so then I'll pray and I'll say, lord, would you help this person with their shame? Would you would you just guide what we're about to do and and and relieve them of the shame? And and so that I might set it up depending on how mature they are in the Lord or how much time I've spent with them and done some training with them about how to do this. I I will more or less guide or kind of let them do most of the work, them and Jesus, the Holy Spirit, by picturing something like, for example, imagine that you're standing in front of Jesus with this shame. And, Jesus is is on the cross, and and, you you know, he died for your shame. He wants to take your shame. That's one of the reasons why he came to earth is so he could take your shame from you and take it to to hell in a way. Take it away from you and and die himself with that shame and and bury it in hell. And so we'll we'll go through this. It's a guided imagery exercise using our our god given imagination for the sake of the healing of the soul, but doing so all in the context of their union with Christ.

Eric Johnson [00:18:30]:

And and I'm inviting them just simply to use their imagination to experientially join with what Jesus has already joined, if that makes sense. And then process that to the point of of of Jesus taking it out of them, and I might they might picture the black rock going into Jesus' body on the cross, absorbing it. He dies. He gets buried. And then I'll if we have the time, I'll often have them, picture them the resurrection. You know, this takes some time. Imagine Jesus coming out of the tomb, and he's dressed in in, you know, robes of, of white a robe of white, but, but, you know, glory and splendor is issuing out of that tomb. My golly.

Eric Johnson [00:19:16]:

And then also, oh, lo and behold, you're you're right behind him and you're also dressed in the same robe. And and, you know, I I usually will take spend a little time with, them together, taught me, you know, then I'll say, you know, what does Jesus wanna say to you? And I'll let them do that together. And, you know, what is what do you wanna say to Jesus? And I'm telling you, it's a powerful encounter with the Lord. And and all we're trying to do is just it's just the gospel, but it's just using all the resources that we have at our disposal both within scripture and then within which a lot of the research has been done on what are effective therapeutic techniques. And we're just bringing it together for the glory of the Lord.

Jim Spiegel [00:19:57]:

Wow. So good. So rich. And, it just shows how the Christian psychology approach, it's not just theocentric. I know you describe it that way. It's God centered, but it's deeply Christological. It's it's Christo centric. And what you just gave us was, kind of a a summary or a snapshot of, of ways in which, you're applying really the doctrine of atonement.

Jim Spiegel [00:20:25]:

Right? And Christian encounter with Christ and sanctification, you know, so many rich theological concepts that are not just theoretical, right. But deeply practical, you know, practical effect, just how beneficial this can be and how important it is to get the, this paradigm out there and just to, explain it to people because it can have such a healing practical effect, but just the way you, you interweave methodologies from a more secular or mainstream approach with, very core biblical, doctrines, ideas in such a natural way. It's, that's just inspiring stuff. So I'd like to switch gears and move into some more personal questions. A major theme of our podcast is how Christians in various professions integrate their faith with what they do. And first, I'd like to hear how you came to faith in the first place. When and how did you convert to Christianity?

Eric Johnson [00:21:33]:

So I was not raised in a Christian home except in a nominal sense. I was one of the last of the hippies, graduated from high school in 74, and so I was into sex, drugs, and rock and roll, to be quite frank, as many in my generation were. But I was on a journey. I was on a quest. I think probably the most defining, challenging, part of my, life before adulthood was that I was responsible for, helping to bring a child into the world with my girlfriend, when we were 16, 17. And, that had, such a a a big impact on me. I felt that somehow, I had had done something very irresponsible, and it sent me, I believe, on a a quest for trying to find myself. So I was, you know, I started studying some philosophy and, world religions, was into transcendental meditation.

Eric Johnson [00:22:41]:

Anyway, eventually, in the providence and the kindness of the lord, he brought me to faith in himself, through a a friend. And, so I then got into the bible and and a a personal relationship with God that has been the foundation of my life ever since.

Jim Spiegel [00:23:02]:

So when and how did you come to see doing psychology as a significant way to apply your faith?

Eric Johnson [00:23:10]:

Yeah. That's a nice question because I I immediately upon faith in Christ, I immediately experienced a profound psychological, reaction. It's like, you know, emotional as well as, you know, it proved to be intellectual. It took a while, but I had an immediate emotional response. In retrospect, I I realized I had been carrying guilt and shame, a pretty heavy dose of both, I guess. And the the day after I gave my life to the Lord, I felt like I was a foot off the ground. I I just couldn't believe it. I had no guilt and shame, and it was such a marked chain.

Eric Johnson [00:23:58]:

Like, for you know, unfortunately, it only lasted, like, 3 days, but still, you know, it was still amazing. And, I I knew that this was the real thing. I tried a lot of other things, and they'd none of them were as profound psychologically, emotionally as as this. So, it's one of the reasons I've stayed with it. I mean, to be honest, it was it was such a marker of, of reality for me. Interesting. I I might return to that. You know, emotions are so important.

Eric Johnson [00:24:28]:

I think our culture downplays them too much and, even the Christian culture. So but this is, you know, one of the reasons why I think it's plausible for me that, you know, emotion is important. So I when I when I I went to bible college to to kinda learn about the bible. And after I got out, I ended up getting into some social work jobs at a Christian ministry. Yeah. What a rescue mission, actually, in Detroit. And as I got into that kind of work, I began to realize that there wasn't very much solid kind of Christian understanding of of this stuff. It was all secular.

Eric Johnson [00:25:08]:

And I had studied secular psychology before I was a Christian. And then I went to Bible college, and I I I I learned there, I studied Jay Adams, and he taught, you know, boy, Christianity has a very different approach to counseling than the than the world does. And I just I just embraced that, at at that time. So I was a little, you know, I kinda like, wow, you know, why isn't there more Christian work practice theory, you know, research in psychology, and that led me to get a master's at at Calvin College in, Christian studies focusing specifically on the behavioral sciences. What a what a blessing that was. George Marsden was, the head of the program. It was it was so rich. And then, from there well, at that at that point, I began to think maybe my calling was to become a teacher professor and that I got it.

Eric Johnson [00:26:03]:

You know, that's where I met that I went met you at Michigan State to get my PhD in educational psychology so that I could teach at Christian universities, afterwards. So that would be that would be kind of the backstory.

Jim Spiegel [00:26:16]:

And then how do you conceive of the unique calling of a Christian psychologist?

Eric Johnson [00:26:23]:

I wanna answer it a little bit kind of a, complex way, but I hope it'll it'll be clear. So I wanna begin my response by saying, god is 1 and the trinity is 1, and god's mind and heart and life are 1. I mean, this is a truism in classical Christian theology and philosophy as you know the simplicity of God, but, boy, if I become persuaded, it's important. Because in in our culture, we have all grown up in a secularized culture, secular dominant culture, and we can't help but take a lot of that for granted, in the public school system. It you know, university system is dominated by a secular approach to all the disciplines, including the disciplines of philosophy and theology. But certainly psychology are just totally secular. And in a secular culture, there has you know, we've kinda developed an approach to the disciplines that they all kinda can do their own thing. The the vision of a Christian psychology is is to to do the best we can to follow God, to to resemble him, to see that things that have been separated by a secular culture are really one in God.

Eric Johnson [00:27:56]:

And because we're made in God's image, we have the capacity to see them as one. And when I say one, I don't mean identical, but but even even how they're conceived from a foundational level has been constrained by secular materialistic kind of worldview forces in our in our culture. And so it's a it's a way of of revisioning reality, re revisioning life, human life, from a standpoint where god's oneness is what we want to be like. And then within that oneness, yeah, sure, there's, you know, the the agenda of a of a theologian is gonna be different than the agenda of a psychologist, but we're gonna have a lot of the same influences. So so, for example, a Christian psychologist believes that the information in the Bible, the life that the Bible portrays, the vision that it casts for life is a part of psychology. It doesn't belong to theology. Of course, the theologian values the Bible. In addition, we're, you know, we also do research, empirical research on human beings and give give out questionnaires, and we we study individuals and so on.

Eric Johnson [00:29:17]:

But, but, boy, that's a big that's a that's an unusual position to take. You know, mainstream psychology would totally reject that, except in a in a trivial sense, perhaps, you know? Oh, yeah. You could study the Bible if you want to understand Christians, you know, or whatever. Rather than trying to bring theology and psychology together, the way that a Christian psychologist would put it is that we want to to see how the science of psychology under God or within God's universe has certain features that are just different. It's a unique version of psychology, Christian psychology versus, you know, the typical label in the field would be modern psychology. And, you know, historians of psychology, philosophers of psychology, they use that term modern in meaning it's a secularized version that emerged in the late 1800 because they were taking the, methods of the natural sciences and applying them to the study of human nature, for which I'm thankful. But that was kind of the birth of modern psychology, whereas Christian psychology has been around since, you know, some people say Melanchthon was the first person to coin the term psychology. I'm not sure if that's true, but certainly, Kierkegaard did writing in Christian psychology.

Eric Johnson [00:30:34]:

That's what he called what he did in some of his books, and and I looked at Kierkegaard as sort of the father of the project that I'm on.

Jim Spiegel [00:30:43]:

Okay. Good. So a lot of our listeners might say, okay, well and good, you know, and what could possibly be objectionable or controversial about what you just laid out. So let's dig down a little bit in terms of contrast, your particular approach, with, say, some competing paradigms. Your landmark book, Foundations for Soul Care, aims to lay out that biblical balanced approach to to Christian counseling and psychology, and a more balanced and a more truly biblical or Christian approach than is provided by other popular approaches. So can you explain what the other standard approaches are and how the Christian psychology paradigm is different?

Eric Johnson [00:31:33]:

Yeah. I'm I'm happy to make mention of a book I edited, called Christianity and Psychology 5 Views. So this is a topic that I've really spent a lot of time with in part because I do value the other approaches that are out there. I think they all are saying something important, and I think we'd all be benefited if they were to listen more to each other rather than kind of, you know, assume, you know, the approach I'm taking is the is the only one and the others are, you know, are are off base. I, you know, I do have my opinion. I do think Christian psychology is the most comprehensive, but in part is because I think all these other approaches have some value. You know, I'm going to a little bit oversimplify the book, though, and say that there are 2 extremes, and, one of them might be called all Bible no science. And, you know, that's that's that's gonna sound pejorative to a person holding that view.

Eric Johnson [00:32:32]:

I don't mean to say they throw out all of science, but at least the the science of psychology. There's there's a pretty big group and and fairly influential a lot of churches, that would see psychology in its entirety as being off base because it's secular, which of course, I agree with that assumption. At least modern psychology, I would say, is secular. And and they would argue that the scriptures are sufficient for all the counseling needs of humanity. And, and then they don't really seem to be very interested in research on psychology. I don't know, like like research on intelligence or personality, which is had a pretty big influence. And I think most people, you know, in our culture, including most Christians would say there's some value in that, but for whatever reason they haven't really addressed that. They focus on counseling primarily.

Eric Johnson [00:33:25]:

Most of, you know, they would tend to use the label biblical counseling, for example, counseling out of the Bible. But it's it's it's exclusive to the Bible, and they believe that God has given us everything of value for counseling is in the Bible and that and, therefore, we we ought not to consult psychology and, the science of psychology. We just don't need to. And, you know, I I I guess I could say a person like John MacArthur would be he'd be a very influential leader in that side of the the spectrum. You know, going to the opposite side of the spectrum would be folks that would be you know, this is a simplistic way of describing them too, but it would be all science, no bible. They would say that the Bible has no place in the science of psychology that would be that would belong exclusively in in, you know, the study of theology. And then I should mention an approach that's closer to Christian psychology, that would call itself integration. And and and integration, there's different labels precise labels for that, but they would be they would they would be in favor of bringing together the the deliverances of modern psychology with with the faith, you know, depending on how they understand what they're to integrate.

Eric Johnson [00:34:49]:

But in my experience over the years, and I've read a lot of them, most of the folks that own that label, number 1, they tend not to do much integration. They tend to say, well, I'm a psychologist. I'm, you know, I'm gonna leave the theologians to do their work. And what it ends up meaning is that their Christian values are integrated into what they do, whether it's teaching, writing, or practicing and counseling, which for for which I'm grateful because I'm in I'm a I really like the idea of bringing Christian faith into this psychology. But what I I think gets missed by that approach is they import. They can't help. We can't help. Any of us can't help but importing the worldview assumptions of modern psychology when we take, you know, the theories and try and, you know, use them.

Eric Johnson [00:35:36]:

Well, especially if we believe, you know, I'm a psychologist, and I and I take the the field as it is, and I try and bring my faith into that. So it it begins with the science of psychology as it's currently defined, And I don't think we can make sense of that apart from the secular revolution, which also coincided. It happened at around the same time, late 1800, turn of the last century. And and so we we don't realize, oh my goodness, what it wasn't just that modern psychology emerged, but it it was a certain version where, the faith, the Christian faith was was deliberately being, you know, exercised from from the project. And they the whole point was to begin as if there was no God. You know, that that was the whole point of modern psychology's founding. So when we say we're going to integrate our faith into that, I think we and I used to do that. I called I used to call myself a biblical counselor back in the day, and you said a counselor.

Eric Johnson [00:36:33]:

And then for a while, I called myself an integrationist. But I think we grossly underestimate just how influential secularism actually is in the science of psychology. It's a it's a decisively different project than modern psychology precisely because it's based on a worldview. I wanna say I'd be wanna begin my psychology with the bible and the Christian traditions, which is, you know, which gives me my identity as a Christian. And and then I want to take a look at, you know, what modern psychology has done. And, of course, it's been it's done amazing work far more than than the Christian community has over the last 100 years, but we kind of equalize things if we go back 2000 years because then we have a lot to contribute to the conversation.

Jim Spiegel [00:37:17]:

Yeah. As you know, there have been significant parallels in the history of, philosophy, history of Christian philosophy. There's been a renaissance in philosophy over the past half century. Robert Roberts was a significant figure in that, along with people like Alvin Plantinga, Robert and Marilyn Adams, William Alston, and you and I have been highly influenced by, you know, a lot of these people, for the same reason. Because in philosophy, with this renaissance of Christian philosophy, as Roberts convinced you, should be done in psychology. We should be boldly doing philosophy from a Christian perspective from the outset and all the way through and not be ashamed or bashful about drawing upon the wealth of resources that we have in the history of our tradition. And what you're doing seems to me to be, championing an approach in your discipline that parallels what's going on, in philosophy and and, specifically Christian philosophy the last generation or so.

Eric Johnson [00:38:27]:

Yes. Absolutely. I really seriously take what what happened in this renaissance of Christian philosophy as inspirational to me. I have since I was, you know, pretty young guy and and started discovering what was going on in philosophy. It can be done. You know? I I but I will say I was a bit naive about how that project could be duplicated in psychology. I think, you know, for a number of reasons philosophy has a history that is Christian, the the philosophy that's taught. It's kind of like it's hard for contemporary philosophers to argue against any Christian philosophy since so much of the history in western philosophies was Christian by, you know, Thomas Aquinas just probably the most important example.

Eric Johnson [00:39:13]:

Whereas, you know, if you be believe, like most modern psychologists do, that psychology began in the late 1800, and before that, we weren't doing real psychology. Then it's a much harder case to make that, you know, a Christian version is warranted to to Christians because they they were taught like I was at a a secular university, most of them, and and and the Christian universities that are that have doctoral programs, unfortunately, in my opinion, you know, embraced the the same kind of paradigm of what psychology actually is, or they don't go back to to Kierkegaard and to Jonathan Edwards and to Thomas Aquinas to realize, oh my goodness, we have our own psychology that's pretty well developed. It's not as empirically based, as modern psychology was for obvious reasons, but it's it's empirical in the sense of case studies and and self reflection and self awareness. So a part of our my my calling has been, you know, the task of retrieval and and to become acquainted with our own tradition much better than we have been, and that's hard to do. But most of us don't have the, intelligence, let alone the time, to get to the doctorates. You know? So, it's hard. It's just hard. It's it's so hard, and my heart goes out to all my brothers and sisters who are doing the best they can.

Eric Johnson [00:40:35]:

I wanna be really clear. I'm not trying to I just I'm I'm emotional because I'm not trying to throw rocks at anybody, but we need to stop the polarization. And I I I'm emotional about it because, you know, so much of my career has been marked by polarization, unfortunately. I mean, you know, as I've watched, you know, Christians fighting against each other, and I'm just so sick of it. And, you know, I did I've done some of that, and I confess that to you, and I'm just so repented. I just we have to get beyond that. As a Christian community, we have to stop fighting each other. We have to start listening to each other where we differ, where it really matters because I can learn from you if you differ from me, rather than seeing that as an opportunity to, you know, to to argue against you and cut you down.

Eric Johnson [00:41:28]:

So for you know, I think the future of the kingdom as we as we move beyond the end of Christendom, which happened in our lifetime, I yeah. I think, we we're we're witnessing it too. There's still the vestiges of Christendom are still around us, but we need to move beyond that so that we can become one again at the body of Christ on earth representing our dear savior.

Jim Spiegel [00:41:52]:

When it comes to listening to one another, that means not just our contemporaries, but the various voices, brothers and sisters from history. You know, it reinforces the historical argument that we can draw upon the Edwards is in the, and, the Thomas's and Augustine, even going back to Augustine. There's, there's so many rich resources there. So one of the topics that you and I have, discussed frequently over the years, you know, from time to time is parenting. We're both parents of, in my case, older kids, in your case, young adults. Are there any ways that a Christian psychology perspective uniquely informs how we should do parenting. How how we might as Christians parent. This is a very this has been a nagging question for me over the years, and I've tried to resist an attitude of complaint, you know, that there's really so little in scripture that explicitly addresses parenting.

Jim Spiegel [00:42:59]:

And sometimes I find myself in prayer, hopefully, respectfully, reverently complaining, you know, why, Lord, you did not include maybe a whole canonical book or just a maybe a the Pauline epistle or something, you know, short, relatively short, but specifically addressing parenting. And I know that what we do have are certain principles that we are to apply. But, you know, that takes a lot of work. And, okay. We shouldn't complain about work, but it's such a critical thing. Such a crucial aspect of of human life is parenting. If the paradigm that you're endorsing really is the best, among, you know, paradigms on offer when it comes to thinking Christianly about psychology and and and counseling, then it presumably has something to say, maybe more than most other models about how we should parent as Christians. So what would you say to that?

Eric Johnson [00:44:08]:

Wow. Thank you. And, and you know, I really appreciate how you said all that, because I have thought the same thing, Jim, about, lord, parenting is the hardest thing in the in the universe, I think, especially if you grow up in a dysfunctional family like I did where my parents didn't they didn't know how to parent very well because their parents didn't parent them very well. And and here I am with the with kids. I love them, but I don't really know what I'm doing. And, sad to say, you know, I'm I'm gonna be pretty frank, I mean, I hope not more frank than you anticipated, but because I feel my calling in this life is to be more honest than I've ever been. I got nothing to lose. I'm too old to care anymore to some degree.

Eric Johnson [00:44:56]:

And the fact is, you know, what I was telling my students for for the last decade is, you know, my family and I, we're a dysfunctional Christian family in recovery. I just have to say that. I the first book I read on parenting, I'm sad to say, was a book called Withhold Not Correction. Now how, you know, how do you respond to that title? You know, Like like, chills, you know, go up your spine. Unfortunately, I was at a stage of my life, I was pretty desperate, but I think given my own background, you know, I was attracted to to a more legalistic kinda, you know, hardcore fundamentalism at that time. And that book, it warped me, and I and I'm sad to say that, the worst thing that I did in my own parenting was that my dear wife and I, we she tried so hard with our our son, trying to help him settle down to bed, you know, when he was an infant within the 1st year of life, and she just got so beside herself. She just couldn't settle him. He he he he just couldn't be settled very well.

Eric Johnson [00:46:05]:

And, and so with this book, one of the things it said is you gotta you gotta spank crying out of a child if they're if if they cry too much. And I, you know, spanked him, Ian, our dear son. I we love him so much, but, I spanked him to make him stop crying. And and now I can't talk about it without crying myself. And I've, you know, I've I've apologized, you know, a lot to him over the years and and we're, you know, we're beyond that. We're at a different stage of our relationship, and he's certainly forgiven me. So I I'm sorry if you didn't, you know, need all of that backstory, but it's so important to me now to be honest about my story because we have great resources in in the Christian faith for a a very ennobling, beautiful approach to parenting. But God did not tell us everything that he believes and and thinks and loves in in in the bible.

Eric Johnson [00:47:07]:

He didn't give us all the information that he that he knows as the omniscient father of all of us. So well, I think the best Christian parenting book out there by by Dan Allender, one of the great Christian psychology person of our day. He's he's written some really good books. His parenting book is called How Children Raise Their Parents. And it's it's a beautiful, you know, kind of paradigm switching, approach to it. Oh, what if parenting isn't just about we need to raise kids, but if actually God's larger agenda is that God wants to use the parenting experience to help bring healing and sanctification into our lives in a much deeper way than we would have imagined without the gospel and without Jesus becoming a human being, humbling himself, for our sakes, because we have this amazing, paradigm switch with with, you know, Jesus and the incarnation and the cross that I think points away towards a complete reframing of of what parenting is actually about. It's not me being the lord of my children as much as it is my dear heavenly father drawing me into a way of seeing, my my my calling as a parent is to lay down my life for my kids. And, you know, God helping me, I think I'm doing somewhat better than I did when I was a young parent because of the healing that he has given me over the years and my willingness to start doing what Dan Allender pointed us to.

Eric Johnson [00:48:59]:

And I read that book, you know, years ago, and it had an impact on me to start thinking differently about the the beauty of Christian parenting and what it's really all about.

Jim Spiegel [00:49:10]:

There's a book, that wasn't translated into English until about 2012 by the great theologian Herman Bawink, and it's entitled The Christian Family. If you haven't I haven't. Read that, it Wow. It's it is the, by far the most profound, insightful, and practical piece of writing I've seen having to do with, both marriage and child rearing. The kind of pervasive theme throughout the book is just the sanctifying effect that marriage has and was intended to have regardless of your spouse. In fact, it's a no lose situation if both husband and wife are Christians in terms of how well, quote unquote, matched or compatible they are. Because the less naturally compatible, the more opportunity for sanctification. And as we know, none of us are perfectly matched with our spouses.

Jim Spiegel [00:50:10]:

In fact, we might bemoan that for decades that if only they were more like this or that, but that's just more opportunity for sanctification. And then we all know as parents just how unnaturally matched our kids are to us in terms of, maturity. They come out of the womb as immature and as ignorant as it gets. And they're naturally selfish. They're we, right? We were children too. We're all natural born liars. I never had to teach any of my kids how to lie. Right.

Jim Spiegel [00:50:44]:

It comes naturally. And all of that, means that you have the most profound challenge possible as a parent. You're dealing with a sinner like yourself. And as if it's, you know, it wouldn't be hard enough there, you know, just dealing with with a young sinner. You're a sinner, and you've got all what problems that you have and conflicts with your spouse. And it's just the whole thing is just perfectly geared for moral challenge. And and it is, you know, the ultimate crucible, for for Christian sanctification. And it really helped.

Jim Spiegel [00:51:27]:

I I I think I was there intuitively before I read the book, but it just put words and concepts, you know, to, something I knew intuitively and experientially, existentially.

Eric Johnson [00:51:39]:

It

Jim Spiegel [00:51:40]:

just really solidified, what is in my mind, you know, the the right biblical theology of the Christian family. So I highly recommend that to you and and all of our listeners, Herman Bavinck, the Christian family. My wife and I have done a certain amount of, premarital counseling, and we've mentored, you know, young people heading into marriage or newly married, and we've often recommended that book. So, yeah, it's great stuff. So you, are founders, you mentioned, you're founder and senior fellow at the Christian Psychology Institute. Listeners can find the link to your site in our description. The CPI, Christian Psychology Institute is described as America's first training center and think tank committed to a biblically rooted Christ centered, science informed vision of psychology and therapy. Now it's incredible to me that you are the first to do this.

Jim Spiegel [00:52:44]:

This is both discouraging and, inspiring, but I guess it just shows how deep, the need is for such a balanced approach. So tell us about what you're doing at the institute and some of the resources that you offer.

Eric Johnson [00:53:02]:

Yeah. Thank you so much. You know, and and as you were saying that, I I I I wonder if I need to qualify that by overseas. I I think it's I think I'm correct, and I'd love to find out otherwise, about America. But I I am aware of Ignis, the Institute For Christian Psychology in Germany that has been around for over 30 years, 35 years maybe now. And, there was a an institute, for Christian psychology or of Christian psychology in South Africa for about 10, 15 years founded by Nickolene Joubert, I'm also aware of. So I wanna give do credit to them. They've been around longer than we have.

Eric Johnson [00:53:44]:

But, I think it's the case that, that we're unique in the US. We are just starting to become sort of visible online, by, we we just started our, our new website, just a few months ago now, and we have some videos up there, that where we're exploring psychological topics. We also are are going to be offering courses and trainings. We are having a retreat that, we're, in May at the end of May where we've invited Steve Evans to come and spend a couple days with us talking about. We're really looking forward to that. That'll be that'll be held in Louisville, sort of, you know, together. That'll be alive. Wow.

Eric Johnson [00:54:31]:

That's not good. In person event. Otherwise, most of what we're doing these days is online. But I think the most significant, thing, that we're training, talking about that I alluded to before is training mental health professionals to become more Christ centered and helping pastors to become more science informed with our courses and our videos and our trainings. So

Jim Spiegel [00:54:57]:

So again, that's the Christian Psychology Institute. You can just Google that and, you'll land at their website, and you can check out, you know, the videos and and other resources they have. Great stuff. So, I just have one more question. I like to conclude all of our interviews with this question, which, you know, becomes, kind of a a return to a more existential and personal kind of, concern. And and that is, what is your view of the meaning of life? Right? Classic philosophical question. What's your view of the meaning of life, and how has your professional work aimed to work out this conviction in practice?

Eric Johnson [00:55:38]:

I would say the meaning of life is to be drawn into the communion of the trinity. And that sounds so lofty and theologically abstract, perhaps, but there isn't really there hasn't been anything better in my life than the times that I've been able to spend with with Jesus and with God my father and and with the Holy Spirit in letting them love me. You know, learning how to open up to their love, it's been the best thing, the most healing thing, the most enjoyable thing, really. There's there's you know, you know, Christians that are listening know what I'm talking about, when when in those times, and they're they can be rare. They, you know, are more frequent for lots of complicated various reasons, but but most Christians have have have tasted that love of god once in a while, and it's there's nothing like it, and it's so pure. It's so good. Yeah. It's ineffable.

Eric Johnson [00:56:41]:

There aren't quite words for it, but it it is what makes life worth living. And, of course, the promise of the Christian faith revealed in scripture in many ways is that right now we don't get that very much, unfortunately, not as much as we would like. But but that's heaven. Like heaven, that's what it is. It's just like 247 for eternity of being in God's presence and having a sense of of joy that is without end. And I feel like my professional life has been talking about that and how do we get there in this life as much as possible, ultimately, preparing us for the life to come.

Jim Spiegel [00:57:25]:

Makes me think of that very cryptic passage in one of Peter's epistles. He talks about participation, in the divine nature, which which our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters probably have developed that theme better than, you know, most Christian sub traditions. But what a rich idea. I think you're right in that most, if not all Christians have a sense of that. It is ineffable. It's hard to put into words, even though we've experienced it, even if it just in a kind of brief episodic way. There is, a kind of personal acquaintance with God that we really only have, really compared to what's coming in the eschaton, a kind of, vague acquaintance, but it's real. Thomas Aquinas, you know, notes that that that level of knowledge of God must wait until the next world.

Jim Spiegel [00:58:29]:

But we but we get enough of that experience now that we can be confident it's coming. And that's essence of Christian hope, isn't it?

Eric Johnson [00:58:38]:

It so has. That's wonderful.

Jim Spiegel [00:58:39]:

Well, this has been great. Eric, I think we could go on for a few more hours. Wonderful. Thank you so much, and bless you, and, continue the great work that you're doing.

Eric Johnson [00:58:50]:

Thank you so much, Jim. What a pleasure it's been.

Jim Spiegel [00:58:54]:

Thank you for listening to the Kalos Center podcast. To get notified when we publish a new episode, please subscribe, and let us know what you think by leaving us a review.Eric Johnson [00:00:00]:

What if parenting isn't just about we need to raise kids, but if actually God's larger agenda is that God wants to use the parenting experience to help bring healing and sanctification into our lives in a much deeper way than we would have imagined without the gospel. It's not me being the lord of my children as much as it is my dear heavenly father drawing me into a way of seeing my calling as a parent is to lay down my life for my kids.

Jim Spiegel [00:00:42]:

Welcome to the Kalos Center podcast. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Kalos Center podcast. Our guest today is one of my favorite people, Eric Johnson. Eric earned his PhD in educational psychology at Michigan State University. He taught for 10 years at University of Northwestern. He was professor of pastoral care and taught counseling for 17 years at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. And he went on from there to teach at Houston Baptist University for 5 years.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:22]:

Eric was the first director of the Society of Christian Psychology and has been doing pastoral counseling weekly for over 25 years. He's counseling weekly for over 25 years. He's written over 60 peer reviewed journal articles, many of which address what a distinctly Christian version of psychology and counseling looks like. Eric has authored or edited several books, most notably his Foundations for Soul Care, a Christian Psychology Proposal published in 2014, and God and Soul Care Therapeutic Resources of the Christian Faith published in 2017. Both of these books are highly acclaimed. Eric is also a close personal friend going back now some 3 decades. We were both graduate students at Michigan State University in the early nineties, and we've supported each other professionally and personally ever since. As John Lennon once said about his bandmates, I can say about Eric and me, we are so close.

Jim Spiegel [00:02:21]:

We are practically friends. So, Eric, my friend, welcome to the Kalos Center podcast.

Eric Johnson [00:02:28]:

Thank you, Jim, so much. It's a delight to be here. I think I'm I'm just gonna say, you know, we're both in similar places vocationally and that we're both starting nonprofits, these days. And so, yeah, it's just a joy to be with you and, join you in this podcast.

Jim Spiegel [00:02:48]:

At the top of the show, Eric was talking about Christian parenting, and we'll get into that a little later in the show. What I'd like to do first is to jump right into the subject of Christian psychology and hear from Eric on some of the most pressing issues today in regards to doing psychology from a Christian perspective. Your book, God and Soul Care, explores what what you call therapeutic resources in Christian theology, which, you know, as we hear from those historical voices, what we're getting from them is pointers to and and applications of Christian theological truths. You go right to those, you know, historical figures who have, done that as well. But what specifically are those therapeutic resources in Christian theology? What what are you talking about there? Can you can you talk about some of those resources and how they serve to make your approach distinctively Christian?

Eric Johnson [00:03:49]:

I think I I want to make sure that I that I address this one point before I answer your question. One thing that's misleading about the label Christian psychology, is I think some people assume that it's gotta be distinctly Christian in every respect, and that turns off a lot of people because there's so much good research has been done by non Christians that isn't distinctly Christian. And I would never want to say that we ought to throw that out because it's not distinctly Christian. On the contrary, there it doesn't have to have a little Jesus symbol for it to belong to God. God is the author of all of reality, and so everything that's true and good and beautiful in in in the created order and beyond belongs to him is he's the source of it all. And so it it for that reason, to say it's a Christian psychology is, is also to say that part of my job as a Christian psychologist is to read widely and to to enjoy all the good deliverances of secular psychology and to claim them for for God to whom they belong. You know? Thanks for asking the question you're asking, which is where, you know, so how is it different? And it's not different in most respects, I would say, in terms of the, you know, the quantity of information that belongs to the to psychology. However, I would say where it does differ is at the heart of the project of a psychology at the, you know, at the worldview level, at the deepest of levels.

Eric Johnson [00:05:20]:

At the heart, the the issue there is the heart is so influential to the rest of the project. So, you know, yeah, it's true in a technical sense. Maybe it's only 10 or 20 percent of Christian psychology is different from secular psychology. But that 10 or 20 percent is like worth, you know, 80 to 90% in value because it it shapes the way you view human beings. It shapes what's important compared to the, you know, the millions of facts, the psychological facts that are out there that are you know, they have their place, but they're not as significant. So, anyway, what what am I getting at? Well, God, maybe I'll say in particular, Jesus Christ is the lord of psychology. It belongs to him. He's the source of it.

Eric Johnson [00:06:07]:

It's his wisdom that we've discovered. It's like, you know, it's not possible for a psychologist to discover anything that God didn't first create, you know, and then, you know, in a way. So that's that's super important. And then I think in in terms of the the field of counseling, psych, you know, psychotherapy, I I think we wanna say that Christ is the, you know, the ultimate physician of souls, and that's a that's a deep kind of theme that you find in the history of the Christian tradition. The deepest healing of the soul occurs through being found by by Christ. Like, Christ is the the source of all good in the universe, common grace, for example, that the common grace that that that happens as a result of the use of medication or the you being in relationship with a really kind and gentle non Christian therapist. A lot of good happens around the world. So, he's he is the physician of souls, even working with people who don't know him in a in a mysterious and beautiful way.

Eric Johnson [00:07:12]:

But, there's a place where Paul makes mention of that, God is the source of everyone's gladness of heart. And just to think about that for a moment, you know, that, you know, all of us, I think, we're all we're all the beneficiaries of so much of God's generosity, including whatever benefits we've gotten from secular therapy in our lives. And a a few other thoughts that I think are super important to a distinctly Christian approach to psychology, One of them is the relational triangle. So the way that I think about that is, so there's me as a self, as an individual human, but I can't understand myself apart from my relationships with other humans. Those that I grew up with, those that are a part of my community, whatever that means, and then a large more largely, you know, the the culture that I grew up in and then, you know, the human race. But so I can't make sense of myself apart from my communal system. A modern psychology is is notable because it's so individualistic and, there's a there's a liability there that that Christianity, I think, offers account a corrective for. But, also the most important part about the triangle is is that at the at the top of the triangle is the triune God, father, son, holy spirit in whose image we are.

Eric Johnson [00:08:29]:

And and and we can't understand ourselves apart from God that the triune God. And so the relational triangle is sort of the the relational backdrop, I think, for all good Christian theorizing and practice. Also, Christianity emphasizes that humans are whole beings, that we are body soul unities, and that the soul, though it the way can be fragmented by the by fallenness, and sin, it's in God's intention that it be one thing just as God is 1. And, it's also the case, however, that human beings are we have to be understood hierarchically and not, one dimensional reductionistic approach, reducing us to just bodies or to bodies that, immaterial quality called a mind to them. I think a richer view we get in the Christian tradition that that that our bodies are not add ons as the way Descartes kind of suggested, but, but but we are body souls and and and that our our embodiedness is is foundational to who we are. But I do wanna distinguish I wanna make a distinction, not not a division between our embodiment and then also our psychological quality, or our our immaterial quality, the soul that we are, they're they're they're a unity, but they can be differentiated. And I think the soul could be helpfully differentiated by distinguishing that there is a psychosocial dimension to our lives, which encompasses, you know, all of the capacities that we have, our our our mental, our emotional and and volitional qualities that all human beings have in common. But I wanna distinguish that from a dimension, the ethical dimension, that we're also ethical beings.

Eric Johnson [00:10:30]:

And and I don't I think modern psychology has often lost sight of the ethical dimension because they kind of say that ethics is values, and it's not scientific. And I that's that's false. It's a false conclusion. But, but it's because of that, then they end up not historically in the last 100 years, never get around to talking about ethics.

Jim Spiegel [00:10:52]:

That's great. You mentioned the importance of, our embodiedness, which overlooking that or downplaying it has been a problem since the beginning of Christian history, right, in the ancient gnostics. I mean, that that even predates Christianity by far, and it seems like it's just been a recurrent problem in the history of the church. A couple of resources that we could probably both of us recommend to our listeners, One popular, one more scholarly, Nancy Piercy's book, Love Thy Body, I think is a wonderful, very nontechnical resource on this issue. And she notes how a low view of the body is at the root of so many of the problems we're seeing in contemporary society, with regard to everything from, abortion to, thinking about gender, human identity, even things like prostitution and physician assisted suicide. So many of these things go back to a low view of the body, which a robust Christian theology is there to correct.

Eric Johnson [00:12:01]:

Yes.

Jim Spiegel [00:12:01]:

Right. That's just one example. And then, Pope John Paul the second wrote this magisterial work, on the theology of the body. It's about a 800 page tome that is arguably the the most, important, significant, insightful work on human embodiedness ever penned. Most people don't have time to dig into all of that, but Christopher Wright has written a nice 200 page introduction to the theology of the body. Whether or not you're Catholic or or Protestant, any Christian's gonna benefit from this. It's profound, and I'd highly recommend that, as well as sounds like you would as as well.

Eric Johnson [00:12:48]:

Always.

Jim Spiegel [00:12:49]:

So let's take a a little bit of a turn to, kind of a practical application of all this. Can can you provide us with a concrete example of a counseling strategy to illustrate a Christian psychology approach to psychotherapy.

Eric Johnson [00:13:05]:

Yeah. And if I can, be a little dastardly, maybe, and do a little bit of advertising. It just so happens that the nonprofit that that I'm involved with is called the Christian Psychology Institute. And one of the things that we're mainly focused on is training counselors of mental health professionals that are Christian how to bring Jesus into their sessions because that's left out. Of course, it's left out of all secular therapy. But a lot of Christian therapists wanna know more about that, and we're gonna be training that. We also wanna help pastors become more well informed about their resources, their own tradition. They have more to offer than they might be aware of, to but but they, you know, they probably could benefit from a little bit more understanding of, human development and neuroscience.

Eric Johnson [00:13:53]:

You know, we we try and provide some of that training for them as well. But so this would be kind of a standard sort of strategy that I've used countless times with counselees and and with myself, and there's a wonderful passage in Romans chapter 6 that that emphasizes our union with Christ in his death and his resurrection. And beginning there, I will sometime let's say somebody is really struggling with a strong sense of shame. They just feel like they're inadequate, that that that that they, they're they're they're not worthy of being cared for, well. And, you know, after meeting with them for a number of weeks, and and I and I and I have this growing sense that we've talked about it somewhat that they just they're just weighed down by this sense of shame. And, you know, shame happens to be the I think it's the first negative emotion, mentioned in the bible. Chapter 2 refers to shame and chapter 3 as well, very symbolically by Adam and Eve hiding. And all religions and and all secular forms of therapy, one way or another, are trying to address shame.

Eric Johnson [00:15:07]:

So how how would a Christian address shame? Well, one one way and there's a 1,000 things we can do, and I might ask them to close their eyes. And and I might take them through a little body relaxation exercise trying to lower their sympathetic nervous system arousal, which is gets aroused and intensified by a shame. And then in in a way, what I'm trying to do is help them to get into a meditative state. I think Christian meditation is is a Christian spiritual discipline for therapy par excellence. And then I'll ask them maybe to to to talk about what maybe we were just previously talking about, assuming that they were talking about something that was making their shame rather salient. And I might ask them to go back to that, sense of shame that they were talking about. And, you know, Christian therapy is sort of a 2 edged sword. I think all therapy is trying to help promote well-being, but in order to do that, it's it's essential, a part of most kinds of therapy that I'm I'm aware of and certainly Christian therapy the way I think of it is that we, but we we need to engage the the our exposure to fallenness in the history of our stories.

Eric Johnson [00:16:19]:

All of us have been exposed to fallenness and and and we've been exposed to shame. We've had our shame activated our lives. And I would guide the person to, okay, well, what why don't you think about what we were just talking about again in a fresh way for the next minute after they've done that for a while, I might say, and try and symbolize, you know, where is that feeling of shame in your body? Because most of our strong emotions are experienced in in our in our bodies. That's one reason why the word heart is often associated with our emotional experience. But so I'll say, you know, we are in your body and they usually are able to identify a place in their body where they're feeling it. You know, is can you think of a symbol that might kind of nicely represent that feeling of shame? And maybe they would say, yeah. It's like a black rock that I I feel in my chest or in my stomach or whatever. And then and then also say, let me pray for us if you're okay with that.

Eric Johnson [00:17:19]:

And so then I'll pray and I'll say, lord, would you help this person with their shame? Would you would you just guide what we're about to do and and and relieve them of the shame? And and so that I might set it up depending on how mature they are in the Lord or how much time I've spent with them and done some training with them about how to do this. I I will more or less guide or kind of let them do most of the work, them and Jesus, the Holy Spirit, by picturing something like, for example, imagine that you're standing in front of Jesus with this shame. And, Jesus is is on the cross, and and, you you know, he died for your shame. He wants to take your shame. That's one of the reasons why he came to earth is so he could take your shame from you and take it to to hell in a way. Take it away from you and and die himself with that shame and and bury it in hell. And so we'll we'll go through this. It's a guided imagery exercise using our our god given imagination for the sake of the healing of the soul, but doing so all in the context of their union with Christ.

Eric Johnson [00:18:30]:

And and I'm inviting them just simply to use their imagination to experientially join with what Jesus has already joined, if that makes sense. And then process that to the point of of of Jesus taking it out of them, and I might they might picture the black rock going into Jesus' body on the cross, absorbing it. He dies. He gets buried. And then I'll if we have the time, I'll often have them, picture them the resurrection. You know, this takes some time. Imagine Jesus coming out of the tomb, and he's dressed in in, you know, robes of, of white a robe of white, but, but, you know, glory and splendor is issuing out of that tomb. My golly.

Eric Johnson [00:19:16]:

And then also, oh, lo and behold, you're you're right behind him and you're also dressed in the same robe. And and, you know, I I usually will take spend a little time with, them together, taught me, you know, then I'll say, you know, what does Jesus wanna say to you? And I'll let them do that together. And, you know, what is what do you wanna say to Jesus? And I'm telling you, it's a powerful encounter with the Lord. And and all we're trying to do is just it's just the gospel, but it's just using all the resources that we have at our disposal both within scripture and then within which a lot of the research has been done on what are effective therapeutic techniques. And we're just bringing it together for the glory of the Lord.

Jim Spiegel [00:19:57]:

Wow. So good. So rich. And, it just shows how the Christian psychology approach, it's not just theocentric. I know you describe it that way. It's God centered, but it's deeply Christological. It's it's Christo centric. And what you just gave us was, kind of a a summary or a snapshot of, of ways in which, you're applying really the doctrine of atonement.

Jim Spiegel [00:20:25]:

Right? And Christian encounter with Christ and sanctification, you know, so many rich theological concepts that are not just theoretical, right. But deeply practical, you know, practical effect, just how beneficial this can be and how important it is to get the, this paradigm out there and just to, explain it to people because it can have such a healing practical effect, but just the way you, you interweave methodologies from a more secular or mainstream approach with, very core biblical, doctrines, ideas in such a natural way. It's, that's just inspiring stuff. So I'd like to switch gears and move into some more personal questions. A major theme of our podcast is how Christians in various professions integrate their faith with what they do. And first, I'd like to hear how you came to faith in the first place. When and how did you convert to Christianity?

Eric Johnson [00:21:33]:

So I was not raised in a Christian home except in a nominal sense. I was one of the last of the hippies, graduated from high school in 74, and so I was into sex, drugs, and rock and roll, to be quite frank, as many in my generation were. But I was on a journey. I was on a quest. I think probably the most defining, challenging, part of my, life before adulthood was that I was responsible for, helping to bring a child into the world with my girlfriend, when we were 16, 17. And, that had, such a a a big impact on me. I felt that somehow, I had had done something very irresponsible, and it sent me, I believe, on a a quest for trying to find myself. So I was, you know, I started studying some philosophy and, world religions, was into transcendental meditation.

Eric Johnson [00:22:41]:

Anyway, eventually, in the providence and the kindness of the lord, he brought me to faith in himself, through a a friend. And, so I then got into the bible and and a a personal relationship with God that has been the foundation of my life ever since.

Jim Spiegel [00:23:02]:

So when and how did you come to see doing psychology as a significant way to apply your faith?

Eric Johnson [00:23:10]:

Yeah. That's a nice question because I I immediately upon faith in Christ, I immediately experienced a profound psychological, reaction. It's like, you know, emotional as well as, you know, it proved to be intellectual. It took a while, but I had an immediate emotional response. In retrospect, I I realized I had been carrying guilt and shame, a pretty heavy dose of both, I guess. And the the day after I gave my life to the Lord, I felt like I was a foot off the ground. I I just couldn't believe it. I had no guilt and shame, and it was such a marked chain.

Eric Johnson [00:23:58]:

Like, for you know, unfortunately, it only lasted, like, 3 days, but still, you know, it was still amazing. And, I I knew that this was the real thing. I tried a lot of other things, and they'd none of them were as profound psychologically, emotionally as as this. So, it's one of the reasons I've stayed with it. I mean, to be honest, it was it was such a marker of, of reality for me. Interesting. I I might return to that. You know, emotions are so important.

Eric Johnson [00:24:28]:

I think our culture downplays them too much and, even the Christian culture. So but this is, you know, one of the reasons why I think it's plausible for me that, you know, emotion is important. So I when I when I I went to bible college to to kinda learn about the bible. And after I got out, I ended up getting into some social work jobs at a Christian ministry. Yeah. What a rescue mission, actually, in Detroit. And as I got into that kind of work, I began to realize that there wasn't very much solid kind of Christian understanding of of this stuff. It was all secular.

Eric Johnson [00:25:08]:

And I had studied secular psychology before I was a Christian. And then I went to Bible college, and I I I I learned there, I studied Jay Adams, and he taught, you know, boy, Christianity has a very different approach to counseling than the than the world does. And I just I just embraced that, at at that time. So I was a little, you know, I kinda like, wow, you know, why isn't there more Christian work practice theory, you know, research in psychology, and that led me to get a master's at at Calvin College in, Christian studies focusing specifically on the behavioral sciences. What a what a blessing that was. George Marsden was, the head of the program. It was it was so rich. And then, from there well, at that at that point, I began to think maybe my calling was to become a teacher professor and that I got it.

Eric Johnson [00:26:03]:

You know, that's where I met that I went met you at Michigan State to get my PhD in educational psychology so that I could teach at Christian universities, afterwards. So that would be that would be kind of the backstory.

Jim Spiegel [00:26:16]:

And then how do you conceive of the unique calling of a Christian psychologist?

Eric Johnson [00:26:23]:

I wanna answer it a little bit kind of a, complex way, but I hope it'll it'll be clear. So I wanna begin my response by saying, god is 1 and the trinity is 1, and god's mind and heart and life are 1. I mean, this is a truism in classical Christian theology and philosophy as you know the simplicity of God, but, boy, if I become persuaded, it's important. Because in in our culture, we have all grown up in a secularized culture, secular dominant culture, and we can't help but take a lot of that for granted, in the public school system. It you know, university system is dominated by a secular approach to all the disciplines, including the disciplines of philosophy and theology. But certainly psychology are just totally secular. And in a secular culture, there has you know, we've kinda developed an approach to the disciplines that they all kinda can do their own thing. The the vision of a Christian psychology is is to to do the best we can to follow God, to to resemble him, to see that things that have been separated by a secular culture are really one in God.

Eric Johnson [00:27:56]:

And because we're made in God's image, we have the capacity to see them as one. And when I say one, I don't mean identical, but but even even how they're conceived from a foundational level has been constrained by secular materialistic kind of worldview forces in our in our culture. And so it's a it's a way of of revisioning reality, re revisioning life, human life, from a standpoint where god's oneness is what we want to be like. And then within that oneness, yeah, sure, there's, you know, the the agenda of a of a theologian is gonna be different than the agenda of a psychologist, but we're gonna have a lot of the same influences. So so, for example, a Christian psychologist believes that the information in the Bible, the life that the Bible portrays, the vision that it casts for life is a part of psychology. It doesn't belong to theology. Of course, the theologian values the Bible. In addition, we're, you know, we also do research, empirical research on human beings and give give out questionnaires, and we we study individuals and so on.

Eric Johnson [00:29:17]:

But, but, boy, that's a big that's a that's an unusual position to take. You know, mainstream psychology would totally reject that, except in a in a trivial sense, perhaps, you know? Oh, yeah. You could study the Bible if you want to understand Christians, you know, or whatever. Rather than trying to bring theology and psychology together, the way that a Christian psychologist would put it is that we want to to see how the science of psychology under God or within God's universe has certain features that are just different. It's a unique version of psychology, Christian psychology versus, you know, the typical label in the field would be modern psychology. And, you know, historians of psychology, philosophers of psychology, they use that term modern in meaning it's a secularized version that emerged in the late 1800 because they were taking the, methods of the natural sciences and applying them to the study of human nature, for which I'm thankful. But that was kind of the birth of modern psychology, whereas Christian psychology has been around since, you know, some people say Melanchthon was the first person to coin the term psychology. I'm not sure if that's true, but certainly, Kierkegaard did writing in Christian psychology.

Eric Johnson [00:30:34]:

That's what he called what he did in some of his books, and and I looked at Kierkegaard as sort of the father of the project that I'm on.

Jim Spiegel [00:30:43]:

Okay. Good. So a lot of our listeners might say, okay, well and good, you know, and what could possibly be objectionable or controversial about what you just laid out. So let's dig down a little bit in terms of contrast, your particular approach, with, say, some competing paradigms. Your landmark book, Foundations for Soul Care, aims to lay out that biblical balanced approach to to Christian counseling and psychology, and a more balanced and a more truly biblical or Christian approach than is provided by other popular approaches. So can you explain what the other standard approaches are and how the Christian psychology paradigm is different?

Eric Johnson [00:31:33]:

Yeah. I'm I'm happy to make mention of a book I edited, called Christianity and Psychology 5 Views. So this is a topic that I've really spent a lot of time with in part because I do value the other approaches that are out there. I think they all are saying something important, and I think we'd all be benefited if they were to listen more to each other rather than kind of, you know, assume, you know, the approach I'm taking is the is the only one and the others are, you know, are are off base. I, you know, I do have my opinion. I do think Christian psychology is the most comprehensive, but in part is because I think all these other approaches have some value. You know, I'm going to a little bit oversimplify the book, though, and say that there are 2 extremes, and, one of them might be called all Bible no science. And, you know, that's that's that's gonna sound pejorative to a person holding that view.

Eric Johnson [00:32:32]:

I don't mean to say they throw out all of science, but at least the the science of psychology. There's there's a pretty big group and and fairly influential a lot of churches, that would see psychology in its entirety as being off base because it's secular, which of course, I agree with that assumption. At least modern psychology, I would say, is secular. And and they would argue that the scriptures are sufficient for all the counseling needs of humanity. And, and then they don't really seem to be very interested in research on psychology. I don't know, like like research on intelligence or personality, which is had a pretty big influence. And I think most people, you know, in our culture, including most Christians would say there's some value in that, but for whatever reason they haven't really addressed that. They focus on counseling primarily.

Eric Johnson [00:33:25]:

Most of, you know, they would tend to use the label biblical counseling, for example, counseling out of the Bible. But it's it's it's exclusive to the Bible, and they believe that God has given us everything of value for counseling is in the Bible and that and, therefore, we we ought not to consult psychology and, the science of psychology. We just don't need to. And, you know, I I I guess I could say a person like John MacArthur would be he'd be a very influential leader in that side of the the spectrum. You know, going to the opposite side of the spectrum would be folks that would be you know, this is a simplistic way of describing them too, but it would be all science, no bible. They would say that the Bible has no place in the science of psychology that would be that would belong exclusively in in, you know, the study of theology. And then I should mention an approach that's closer to Christian psychology, that would call itself integration. And and and integration, there's different labels precise labels for that, but they would be they would they would be in favor of bringing together the the deliverances of modern psychology with with the faith, you know, depending on how they understand what they're to integrate.

Eric Johnson [00:34:49]:

But in my experience over the years, and I've read a lot of them, most of the folks that own that label, number 1, they tend not to do much integration. They tend to say, well, I'm a psychologist. I'm, you know, I'm gonna leave the theologians to do their work. And what it ends up meaning is that their Christian values are integrated into what they do, whether it's teaching, writing, or practicing and counseling, which for for which I'm grateful because I'm in I'm a I really like the idea of bringing Christian faith into this psychology. But what I I think gets missed by that approach is they import. They can't help. We can't help. Any of us can't help but importing the worldview assumptions of modern psychology when we take, you know, the theories and try and, you know, use them.

Eric Johnson [00:35:36]:

Well, especially if we believe, you know, I'm a psychologist, and I and I take the the field as it is, and I try and bring my faith into that. So it it begins with the science of psychology as it's currently defined, And I don't think we can make sense of that apart from the secular revolution, which also coincided. It happened at around the same time, late 1800, turn of the last century. And and so we we don't realize, oh my goodness, what it wasn't just that modern psychology emerged, but it it was a certain version where, the faith, the Christian faith was was deliberately being, you know, exercised from from the project. And they the whole point was to begin as if there was no God. You know, that that was the whole point of modern psychology's founding. So when we say we're going to integrate our faith into that, I think we and I used to do that. I called I used to call myself a biblical counselor back in the day, and you said a counselor.

Eric Johnson [00:36:33]:

And then for a while, I called myself an integrationist. But I think we grossly underestimate just how influential secularism actually is in the science of psychology. It's a it's a decisively different project than modern psychology precisely because it's based on a worldview. I wanna say I'd be wanna begin my psychology with the bible and the Christian traditions, which is, you know, which gives me my identity as a Christian. And and then I want to take a look at, you know, what modern psychology has done. And, of course, it's been it's done amazing work far more than than the Christian community has over the last 100 years, but we kind of equalize things if we go back 2000 years because then we have a lot to contribute to the conversation.

Jim Spiegel [00:37:17]:

Yeah. As you know, there have been significant parallels in the history of, philosophy, history of Christian philosophy. There's been a renaissance in philosophy over the past half century. Robert Roberts was a significant figure in that, along with people like Alvin Plantinga, Robert and Marilyn Adams, William Alston, and you and I have been highly influenced by, you know, a lot of these people, for the same reason. Because in philosophy, with this renaissance of Christian philosophy, as Roberts convinced you, should be done in psychology. We should be boldly doing philosophy from a Christian perspective from the outset and all the way through and not be ashamed or bashful about drawing upon the wealth of resources that we have in the history of our tradition. And what you're doing seems to me to be, championing an approach in your discipline that parallels what's going on, in philosophy and and, specifically Christian philosophy the last generation or so.

Eric Johnson [00:38:27]:

Yes. Absolutely. I really seriously take what what happened in this renaissance of Christian philosophy as inspirational to me. I have since I was, you know, pretty young guy and and started discovering what was going on in philosophy. It can be done. You know? I I but I will say I was a bit naive about how that project could be duplicated in psychology. I think, you know, for a number of reasons philosophy has a history that is Christian, the the philosophy that's taught. It's kind of like it's hard for contemporary philosophers to argue against any Christian philosophy since so much of the history in western philosophies was Christian by, you know, Thomas Aquinas just probably the most important example.

Eric Johnson [00:39:13]:

Whereas, you know, if you be believe, like most modern psychologists do, that psychology began in the late 1800, and before that, we weren't doing real psychology. Then it's a much harder case to make that, you know, a Christian version is warranted to to Christians because they they were taught like I was at a a secular university, most of them, and and and the Christian universities that are that have doctoral programs, unfortunately, in my opinion, you know, embraced the the same kind of paradigm of what psychology actually is, or they don't go back to to Kierkegaard and to Jonathan Edwards and to Thomas Aquinas to realize, oh my goodness, we have our own psychology that's pretty well developed. It's not as empirically based, as modern psychology was for obvious reasons, but it's it's empirical in the sense of case studies and and self reflection and self awareness. So a part of our my my calling has been, you know, the task of retrieval and and to become acquainted with our own tradition much better than we have been, and that's hard to do. But most of us don't have the, intelligence, let alone the time, to get to the doctorates. You know? So, it's hard. It's just hard. It's it's so hard, and my heart goes out to all my brothers and sisters who are doing the best they can.

Eric Johnson [00:40:35]:

I wanna be really clear. I'm not trying to I just I'm I'm emotional because I'm not trying to throw rocks at anybody, but we need to stop the polarization. And I I I'm emotional about it because, you know, so much of my career has been marked by polarization, unfortunately. I mean, you know, as I've watched, you know, Christians fighting against each other, and I'm just so sick of it. And, you know, I did I've done some of that, and I confess that to you, and I'm just so repented. I just we have to get beyond that. As a Christian community, we have to stop fighting each other. We have to start listening to each other where we differ, where it really matters because I can learn from you if you differ from me, rather than seeing that as an opportunity to, you know, to to argue against you and cut you down.

Eric Johnson [00:41:28]:

So for you know, I think the future of the kingdom as we as we move beyond the end of Christendom, which happened in our lifetime, I yeah. I think, we we're we're witnessing it too. There's still the vestiges of Christendom are still around us, but we need to move beyond that so that we can become one again at the body of Christ on earth representing our dear savior.

Jim Spiegel [00:41:52]:

When it comes to listening to one another, that means not just our contemporaries, but the various voices, brothers and sisters from history. You know, it reinforces the historical argument that we can draw upon the Edwards is in the, and, the Thomas's and Augustine, even going back to Augustine. There's, there's so many rich resources there. So one of the topics that you and I have, discussed frequently over the years, you know, from time to time is parenting. We're both parents of, in my case, older kids, in your case, young adults. Are there any ways that a Christian psychology perspective uniquely informs how we should do parenting. How how we might as Christians parent. This is a very this has been a nagging question for me over the years, and I've tried to resist an attitude of complaint, you know, that there's really so little in scripture that explicitly addresses parenting.

Jim Spiegel [00:42:59]:

And sometimes I find myself in prayer, hopefully, respectfully, reverently complaining, you know, why, Lord, you did not include maybe a whole canonical book or just a maybe a the Pauline epistle or something, you know, short, relatively short, but specifically addressing parenting. And I know that what we do have are certain principles that we are to apply. But, you know, that takes a lot of work. And, okay. We shouldn't complain about work, but it's such a critical thing. Such a crucial aspect of of human life is parenting. If the paradigm that you're endorsing really is the best, among, you know, paradigms on offer when it comes to thinking Christianly about psychology and and and counseling, then it presumably has something to say, maybe more than most other models about how we should parent as Christians. So what would you say to that?

Eric Johnson [00:44:08]:

Wow. Thank you. And, and you know, I really appreciate how you said all that, because I have thought the same thing, Jim, about, lord, parenting is the hardest thing in the in the universe, I think, especially if you grow up in a dysfunctional family like I did where my parents didn't they didn't know how to parent very well because their parents didn't parent them very well. And and here I am with the with kids. I love them, but I don't really know what I'm doing. And, sad to say, you know, I'm I'm gonna be pretty frank, I mean, I hope not more frank than you anticipated, but because I feel my calling in this life is to be more honest than I've ever been. I got nothing to lose. I'm too old to care anymore to some degree.

Eric Johnson [00:44:56]:

And the fact is, you know, what I was telling my students for for the last decade is, you know, my family and I, we're a dysfunctional Christian family in recovery. I just have to say that. I the first book I read on parenting, I'm sad to say, was a book called Withhold Not Correction. Now how, you know, how do you respond to that title? You know, Like like, chills, you know, go up your spine. Unfortunately, I was at a stage of my life, I was pretty desperate, but I think given my own background, you know, I was attracted to to a more legalistic kinda, you know, hardcore fundamentalism at that time. And that book, it warped me, and I and I'm sad to say that, the worst thing that I did in my own parenting was that my dear wife and I, we she tried so hard with our our son, trying to help him settle down to bed, you know, when he was an infant within the 1st year of life, and she just got so beside herself. She just couldn't settle him. He he he he just couldn't be settled very well.

Eric Johnson [00:46:05]:

And, and so with this book, one of the things it said is you gotta you gotta spank crying out of a child if they're if if they cry too much. And I, you know, spanked him, Ian, our dear son. I we love him so much, but, I spanked him to make him stop crying. And and now I can't talk about it without crying myself. And I've, you know, I've I've apologized, you know, a lot to him over the years and and we're, you know, we're beyond that. We're at a different stage of our relationship, and he's certainly forgiven me. So I I'm sorry if you didn't, you know, need all of that backstory, but it's so important to me now to be honest about my story because we have great resources in in the Christian faith for a a very ennobling, beautiful approach to parenting. But God did not tell us everything that he believes and and thinks and loves in in in the bible.

Eric Johnson [00:47:07]:

He didn't give us all the information that he that he knows as the omniscient father of all of us. So well, I think the best Christian parenting book out there by by Dan Allender, one of the great Christian psychology person of our day. He's he's written some really good books. His parenting book is called How Children Raise Their Parents. And it's it's a beautiful, you know, kind of paradigm switching, approach to it. Oh, what if parenting isn't just about we need to raise kids, but if actually God's larger agenda is that God wants to use the parenting experience to help bring healing and sanctification into our lives in a much deeper way than we would have imagined without the gospel and without Jesus becoming a human being, humbling himself, for our sakes, because we have this amazing, paradigm switch with with, you know, Jesus and the incarnation and the cross that I think points away towards a complete reframing of of what parenting is actually about. It's not me being the lord of my children as much as it is my dear heavenly father drawing me into a way of seeing, my my my calling as a parent is to lay down my life for my kids. And, you know, God helping me, I think I'm doing somewhat better than I did when I was a young parent because of the healing that he has given me over the years and my willingness to start doing what Dan Allender pointed us to.

Eric Johnson [00:48:59]:

And I read that book, you know, years ago, and it had an impact on me to start thinking differently about the the beauty of Christian parenting and what it's really all about.

Jim Spiegel [00:49:10]:

There's a book, that wasn't translated into English until about 2012 by the great theologian Herman Bawink, and it's entitled The Christian Family. If you haven't I haven't. Read that, it Wow. It's it is the, by far the most profound, insightful, and practical piece of writing I've seen having to do with, both marriage and child rearing. The kind of pervasive theme throughout the book is just the sanctifying effect that marriage has and was intended to have regardless of your spouse. In fact, it's a no lose situation if both husband and wife are Christians in terms of how well, quote unquote, matched or compatible they are. Because the less naturally compatible, the more opportunity for sanctification. And as we know, none of us are perfectly matched with our spouses.

Jim Spiegel [00:50:10]:

In fact, we might bemoan that for decades that if only they were more like this or that, but that's just more opportunity for sanctification. And then we all know as parents just how unnaturally matched our kids are to us in terms of, maturity. They come out of the womb as immature and as ignorant as it gets. And they're naturally selfish. They're we, right? We were children too. We're all natural born liars. I never had to teach any of my kids how to lie. Right.

Jim Spiegel [00:50:44]:

It comes naturally. And all of that, means that you have the most profound challenge possible as a parent. You're dealing with a sinner like yourself. And as if it's, you know, it wouldn't be hard enough there, you know, just dealing with with a young sinner. You're a sinner, and you've got all what problems that you have and conflicts with your spouse. And it's just the whole thing is just perfectly geared for moral challenge. And and it is, you know, the ultimate crucible, for for Christian sanctification. And it really helped.

Jim Spiegel [00:51:27]:

I I I think I was there intuitively before I read the book, but it just put words and concepts, you know, to, something I knew intuitively and experientially, existentially.

Eric Johnson [00:51:39]:

It

Jim Spiegel [00:51:40]:

just really solidified, what is in my mind, you know, the the right biblical theology of the Christian family. So I highly recommend that to you and and all of our listeners, Herman Bavinck, the Christian family. My wife and I have done a certain amount of, premarital counseling, and we've mentored, you know, young people heading into marriage or newly married, and we've often recommended that book. So, yeah, it's great stuff. So you, are founders, you mentioned, you're founder and senior fellow at the Christian Psychology Institute. Listeners can find the link to your site in our description. The CPI, Christian Psychology Institute is described as America's first training center and think tank committed to a biblically rooted Christ centered, science informed vision of psychology and therapy. Now it's incredible to me that you are the first to do this.

Jim Spiegel [00:52:44]:

This is both discouraging and, inspiring, but I guess it just shows how deep, the need is for such a balanced approach. So tell us about what you're doing at the institute and some of the resources that you offer.

Eric Johnson [00:53:02]:

Yeah. Thank you so much. You know, and and as you were saying that, I I I I wonder if I need to qualify that by overseas. I I think it's I think I'm correct, and I'd love to find out otherwise, about America. But I I am aware of Ignis, the Institute For Christian Psychology in Germany that has been around for over 30 years, 35 years maybe now. And, there was a an institute, for Christian psychology or of Christian psychology in South Africa for about 10, 15 years founded by Nickolene Joubert, I'm also aware of. So I wanna give do credit to them. They've been around longer than we have.

Eric Johnson [00:53:44]:

But, I think it's the case that, that we're unique in the US. We are just starting to become sort of visible online, by, we we just started our, our new website, just a few months ago now, and we have some videos up there, that where we're exploring psychological topics. We also are are going to be offering courses and trainings. We are having a retreat that, we're, in May at the end of May where we've invited Steve Evans to come and spend a couple days with us talking about. We're really looking forward to that. That'll be that'll be held in Louisville, sort of, you know, together. That'll be alive. Wow.

Eric Johnson [00:54:31]:

That's not good. In person event. Otherwise, most of what we're doing these days is online. But I think the most significant, thing, that we're training, talking about that I alluded to before is training mental health professionals to become more Christ centered and helping pastors to become more science informed with our courses and our videos and our trainings. So

Jim Spiegel [00:54:57]:

So again, that's the Christian Psychology Institute. You can just Google that and, you'll land at their website, and you can check out, you know, the videos and and other resources they have. Great stuff. So, I just have one more question. I like to conclude all of our interviews with this question, which, you know, becomes, kind of a a return to a more existential and personal kind of, concern. And and that is, what is your view of the meaning of life? Right? Classic philosophical question. What's your view of the meaning of life, and how has your professional work aimed to work out this conviction in practice?

Eric Johnson [00:55:38]:

I would say the meaning of life is to be drawn into the communion of the trinity. And that sounds so lofty and theologically abstract, perhaps, but there isn't really there hasn't been anything better in my life than the times that I've been able to spend with with Jesus and with God my father and and with the Holy Spirit in letting them love me. You know, learning how to open up to their love, it's been the best thing, the most healing thing, the most enjoyable thing, really. There's there's you know, you know, Christians that are listening know what I'm talking about, when when in those times, and they're they can be rare. They, you know, are more frequent for lots of complicated various reasons, but but most Christians have have have tasted that love of god once in a while, and it's there's nothing like it, and it's so pure. It's so good. Yeah. It's ineffable.

Eric Johnson [00:56:41]:

There aren't quite words for it, but it it is what makes life worth living. And, of course, the promise of the Christian faith revealed in scripture in many ways is that right now we don't get that very much, unfortunately, not as much as we would like. But but that's heaven. Like heaven, that's what it is. It's just like 247 for eternity of being in God's presence and having a sense of of joy that is without end. And I feel like my professional life has been talking about that and how do we get there in this life as much as possible, ultimately, preparing us for the life to come.

Jim Spiegel [00:57:25]:

Makes me think of that very cryptic passage in one of Peter's epistles. He talks about participation, in the divine nature, which which our Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters probably have developed that theme better than, you know, most Christian sub traditions. But what a rich idea. I think you're right in that most, if not all Christians have a sense of that. It is ineffable. It's hard to put into words, even though we've experienced it, even if it just in a kind of brief episodic way. There is, a kind of personal acquaintance with God that we really only have, really compared to what's coming in the eschaton, a kind of, vague acquaintance, but it's real. Thomas Aquinas, you know, notes that that that level of knowledge of God must wait until the next world.

Jim Spiegel [00:58:29]:

But we but we get enough of that experience now that we can be confident it's coming. And that's essence of Christian hope, isn't it?

Eric Johnson [00:58:38]:

It so has. That's wonderful.

Jim Spiegel [00:58:39]:

Well, this has been great. Eric, I think we could go on for a few more hours. Wonderful. Thank you so much, and bless you, and, continue the great work that you're doing.

Eric Johnson [00:58:50]:

Thank you so much, Jim. What a pleasure it's been.

Jim Spiegel [00:58:54]:

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