Robert Woodson Sr. [00:00:00]:

Up until the 60s, government was hostile to our efforts. Government was on the side of oppression and so we were then compelled to rely on ourselves and institutions that were created within the black community. So in our book seventeen seventy six Unites, we document the fact that when whites were at their worst, blacks were at their best. But we we had to rely on ourselves. When you look at the the records of six plantations and what was the state of marriage of the slave family, 75% of slave families had a man and a woman raising children. So the nuclear family spontaneously became central to the survival of blacks. In fact, between 1930 and 1940, black America had the highest marriage rate of any group in society.

Jim Spiegel [00:00:53]:

Welcome to the Kalos Center podcast. Welcome to another episode of the Kalos Center podcast. Our guest today is Robert Woodson senior. Mister Woodson is a community development leader, author, and founder and president of the Woodson Center, which is a nonprofit organization that promotes grassroots approach to urban renewal and revitalizing impoverished communities. The Woodson strategy of community revitalization is sometimes called indigenous because it deploys human resources of empowerment that are already living within the struggling community. He calls such people social entrepreneurs, people who have the skills and character to lead these renewal projects who are typically far more effective than a distant government agency. Mister Woodson's work actually began in the nineteen sixties working in the civil rights movement. He's worked with the NAACP and the National Urban League among other organizations.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:59]:

Mister Woodson has authored or edited several books. These include lessons from the least of these, the Woodson principles, and his edited volume, Red, White, and Black, rescuing American history from revisionist and race hustlers. Finally, mister Woodson is a recipient of multiple awards, including the Bradley prize, the Manhattan Institute social entrepreneurship award, and the presidential citizens medal. So with that, Robert Woodson, welcome to the Kalos Center podcast.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:02:31]:

Pleased to be here.

Jim Spiegel [00:02:33]:

So I've been reading through the two books that I mentioned, which are tremendous. I think they're powerfully argued and, personally inspiring. Why don't we begin by having you tell us about the Woodson Center, what its mission is, and what it's achieved?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:02:48]:

I founded the Woodson Center in July. It'll be forty four years ago. I was inspired to do so when I was active in the civil rights movement as a young civil rights activist in Westchester, Pennsylvania. That's the home of Barrett Rustin. I was leading demonstrations and and, and I left the movement on two issues on forced bussing for integration. I believe that we should never have argued separate is inherently unequal, but strategically unequal. And I was unalterably opposed to busing. I believe that the opposite of segregation is desegregation and integration is an individual matter.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:03:29]:

So that got me in trouble with the traditional leadership. But also, the final blow came when we were leading demonstrations outside of a local pharmaceutical company and when they desegregated, they hired non black PhD chemist and we asked them to join our movement. They said they got their jobs because they were qualified, not because of the sacrifices that people and on the line were hairdressers, barbers, factory workers, just ordinary black folks. I realized that a bait and switch game was going on where the where you use the as bait the demographics of low income blacks and then the switch comes when the resources arrive and it goes not to the poor but those who are intended to serve the poor. So I saw the beginning of not only the race grievance industry but also the poverty industrial complex too Because a lot of the civil rights leaders became elected officials and they began to run these cities when the governments with the sixties anti poverty programs began to pour millions of dollars into these cities where 70¢ of those dollars did not go to the poor but it went to those who serve the poor and so we created a commodity out of poor people. I saw this from the absolute beginning and left that movement and went out to work on behalf of low income people of all races.

Jim Spiegel [00:05:00]:

So a a key premise in your work is that the only truly effective path for improving one's life situation is to take personal responsibility for doing so. You really emphasize that in your in your publications. That seems like common sense. So why do you think our culture is so resistant to that?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:05:20]:

Well, first of all, it's because, again, as I told you, a lot of people who were had noble intentions sometimes were injuring people with the helping hand. The biggest barrier that we have of helping the poor is a fundamental elitism coming from both the right and the left. That somehow, poverty makes you not only dispirited, but also, unwise. And therefore, only only professionals have the capacity and the ability to rescue people from themselves. And so, it was a combination of forces. Also, the federal government, shifted away from supporting local institutions and local solutions to a professionalization of poverty programs. That's why over the past thirty to forty years, seventy cents of every dollar that was spent on the poor went to those who serve the poor. They asked which problems are are fundable, not which ones are are solvable.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:06:26]:

And so we so it doesn't matter how well intentioned you are, but if your economic interest is allied against the the poor, it causes good people to do bad things. Yeah. No matter how no matter how passionate you may be, but if your strategic interest is hostile to the strategic interest of those you're serving, that's a conflict. And that's what's driven social policy over the past forty years, and that race comes in to kind of act as a shield over anybody questioning this arrangement.

Jim Spiegel [00:07:05]:

So the approach you advocate and practice is to to educate and empower local people to take the lead in addressing the issues that plague their communities. How exactly do you go about doing that?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:07:17]:

Well, first of all, recognizing that particularly in the black community, up until the sixties, government was hostile to our efforts. Government was on the side of oppression. And so we were then compelled to rely on ourselves and institutions that were created within the black community. So in our book seventeen seventy six Unites, we document the fact that when whites were at their worst, blacks were at their best. But we had to rely on ourselves and we were denied. I think one of our scholars found that when you look at the, the the records of six plantations and what was the state of marriage of the slave family, 75% of slave families had a man and a woman raising children. So the nuclear family, spontaneously became central to the survival of blacks. And for one hundred years, the nuclear family became central to the survival of black America up until the sixties.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:08:20]:

In fact, when that to the 1930 and 1940, black America had the highest marriage rate of any group in society. Elderly people could walk safely in their communities without fear of being assaulted by their grandchildren. So the problems that we're faced with today, you know, were absent the first hundred years after slavery when government was hostile to us. So the question is, if we were able to achieve build railroads, we owned our own railroad in Baltimore, hotels, medical schools, colleges. We had to do this on our own. And so so so there's a history there of of self sufficiency, wealth accumulation, and and helping ourselves. But all of that came to a halt in the sixties.

Jim Spiegel [00:09:13]:

Right. And what was the turning point, do you think? Because there was a precipitous decline in intact marriages in the second half of the second century in the black communities.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:09:23]:

I think it was clearly spelled out in the Cloud and Piven. These were two social scientists at Columbia School of Social Work, and they were socialists. They said that one of the ways that we can, force socialism on society if we separate work from income and you separate work from income, But then you had the government coming in with the poverty programs, setting up offices to recruit blacks into the welfare system. You had the black power movement that says that the nuclear family was Eurocentric and therefore racist. So you had that element. You had the women's movement coming along saying that the paternity that a a hostile to fathers, and that was another element. So then you had the federal government and but there was a stigma in the black community on being on welfare. And so we said so what they did was they said welfare, it's it's reparations for pathway.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:10:27]:

So what and the government set up poverty offices that recruited over three to 4,000,000 people in the course of three years into the welfare system at a time when the unemployment rate for black men in New York was 4%. And so it was a pernicious action. And as a consequence, you saw a dramatic explosion of out of wedlock births. Fathers became redundant. We and so that's what happened. Even racism and slavery and Jim Crow did not destroy the integrity of the black family and these relationships. But just a few decades of social policies of the federal government. Urban renewal came through and wiped out the commercial centers in black communities And then welfare came out and wiped out the moral centers of black communities.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:11:28]:

And so there was a combination of these economic assault on the structure of the, of the wealth producing engines and communities, the black Wall Streets, and you have social policies of the 60s that that was hostile to faith. And and as a consequence, you see an explosion of out out of wedlock births with crime and and all these other issues as a consequence of that those policies.

Jim Spiegel [00:11:58]:

It just seems to all come back to the family, doesn't it? Yes. Yes. And when, president Obama noted that, you know, this is a key source of so many problems in the black community and and within the the country at large is, fatherlessness. He was excoriated for that. It's really sad to see.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:12:18]:

But But on let me say in the streets, we say he punked out. Mhmm. Meaning he had an opportunity to be a transformational president. That's what real leadership is. When Doctor. King was challenged for, for making his statements, a letter from a Birmingham jail when he said that that the greatest stumbling block for black progress is not the white citizens council, but the KKK. He was excoriated by the traditional leadership. But Doctor.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:12:48]:

King didn't push back. He he realized that real leadership doesn't just reflect popular opinion or the consensus of the majority, but you're willing to challenge it and move that Obama folded. The next day out of his mouth was Trayvon Martin could have been my son. He compromised and became a part of the race grievance industry and never heard him talk about personal responsibility since.

Jim Spiegel [00:13:23]:

What a missed opportunity. Yes. So your book, Lessons from the Least of These, outlines you call the Woodson principles. And you you have, 10 characteristics that you expound upon. One of your principles is integrity, and you emphasize how community leaders must be virtuous, honest, trustworthy. You also emphasize the needs for traits like resilience, innovation, inspiration, as well as competence. What do you say to a critic who says that you're aiming too high, that some communities are so depressed that you won't be able to recruit people with so many noble qualities.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:14:02]:

I smile when they say that because Chuck Swindell said pastor Swindell said 10% of who we are is our external circumstance. 90% of who we are is our attitude about the 10%. The sickest part of the body draws the strongest antibodies. Am I right?

Jim Spiegel [00:14:27]:

Very good.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:14:28]:

The strongest antibodies. And so you first have to believe yourself that these antibodies exist. So I go into these, high crime toxic neighborhoods and I look for virtue in action. And I I haven't been in one community where I haven't found it. No. The Brett the Bradley Foundation, a billion dollar foundation, said to me, Bob, I've had consultants, we've had consultants come in and say they don't exist in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I said, I've never been on the streets of Milwaukee, but I can I know where to look? Just bring me in for three days. So I came in and I went to a hairdresser, barbershop, then grocery stores and I asked people, where do people turn to in times of trouble and in crisis? The same three names came up 10 times.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:15:25]:

I knocked on the door of these three people and I asked them why do people turn to you? And they told me because they find answers. Those are the healing aids. Then I said, well, who else does what you do? Well, Leslie Handy on the East Side and so on. I said, well, can you introduce me to them? Next thing you know, I had 10 people in the room. Then I asked those 10 who does what they do. Now I got 30 in the room. So in other words, the quality that make healing agents effective makes them invisible because they are not whining and complaining. They also have moral authority and therefore social trust.

Jim Spiegel [00:16:09]:

It's so good. That, inspiring, and it reminds me of, let's say, the method of one Jesus of Nazareth. Right? Fishing for certain people who would be willing to commit themselves to this cause, you know, in a significant way, and then it multiplies. So I assume these these same people have a way of, making their own virtue infectious in the community.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:16:37]:

They they really do. I mean, when when you're filled with the love of Christ, you can't you can't keep it to yourself.

Jim Spiegel [00:16:46]:

Especially when you have tangible results and

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:16:49]:

When you got tangible results. You know, that's why one of the the the principal themes of my organization is the triumphs of Joseph. That's another book of mine that inspired me because there are two types of Joseph. There's Joseph from from from Genesis who was blameless, but yet he suffered. But he never succame to bitterness. Eventually, he became he still maintained his faith in God. But also he took action to rescue the family that betrayed him and the Egyptians that enslaved him. And then there, that's one type of Joseph.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:17:31]:

They're blameless. He didn't he suffered though, but he never succumb to bitterness. But the second type of Joseph are those who were fallen, and then they're redeemed. They were drug addicts, they were prostitutes, thank to God's grace, they were redeemed. And their life then is a witness that redemption is possible. So we go into low income communities and look for those two types of Josephs. If you say that 70% of the families are raising children that are dropping out of school or in jail and drugs, it means 30% of the families raising children responsibly and effectively under the worst of circumstances to find out to discover what are the qualities that sets them apart from their neighbors And what can we learn from them that can be shared with the 70%? That's what the Woodson Center does. We go in and find these, we call them social entrepreneurs.

Jim Spiegel [00:18:37]:

I love that. It's it's just so inspiring, and it it's it's such a different approach than you what you would get from a a government agency and you know, which, for all of their good intentions, just cannot have that kind of personal grassroots attention.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:18:55]:

No. Not at all. In fact, when you ask the question about why why isn't common sense more commonplace? First of all, being deprived does not mean you are depraved. It's good. It doesn't mean that you got to be depraved. And so you have to come in with a level of expectation. But what really elitism prevents us from really recognizing the Josephs of this world or the social entrepreneurs, it's very interesting that the principles in our market economy, we we we don't apply them to the social economy. In our market economy, only 3% of the people are entrepreneurs, but they generate 70% of the jobs.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:19:42]:

According to David Birch, entrepreneurs tend to be c students, not a students. See smart people have to have all the answers before they act and when they act, the opportunity is gone. But C students act in the presence of their doubts and uncertainties, make mistakes, come back, try it again, fail, come back again the third time, they do it. They strike it rich.

Jim Spiegel [00:20:08]:

So your Joseph principle, and the importance of not becoming bitter, that connects with one of your other principles, which is grace or radical forgiveness, and that is certainly an essential Christian virtue. But it's also extremely challenging to practice, right, because it requires people to not hold grudges despite even severe harms and injustices that they may have suffered. So that raises a couple of questions for me. Do you encounter much resistance to that? And if people do resist, how do you go about encouraging them to practice forgiveness?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:20:48]:

By by going to those who've who've demonstrated radical grace. And in other words, I think witness what we do is recruit witnesses for people. We have a group called Voices of Black Mothers United. These are thousands of mothers who lost their children to homicide, and they come together to give each other mutual aid and support. Okay? Some of those mothers minister to the young men who killed their son in prison. There are all kinds of examples of mothers who have visited and forgiven the young man who took the life of their daughter or their son. So when you ask them why did they do this, because they said it was a chain around my neck and so it's fascinating And you learn so much when you sit in a circle of 15 moms and you hear them talk about why they engage in radical forgiveness. What it has done to change their lives.

Jim Spiegel [00:21:57]:

That's something that's often missed about forgiveness is what what a gift it is to yourself. Some have compared it to some have compared, grudge holding, and bitterness to, say, taking poison and and then waiting for the other person to die. Right? You you only harm yourself. So that's your experience, with those who have practiced that really confirms the the power of forgiveness. Yes.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:22:27]:

Also in our in our publications, we historically, there's a man named Robert Smalls in our book who was, born a slave, and he, ended up on a Confederate supply ship, stole the ship along with his six shipmates, picked up their families, went put on the hat of the of the master, went through his five garrisons and turned the ship over to the Union Navy. He became celebrated throughout the North and met with Lincoln. Afterwards, he became a successful businessman and during Reconstruction was in Congress. He purchased a plantation on which he was a slave and took in the wife of the slave master who had become had developed dementia and was poor and allowed her to stay in her bedroom. So historically, we have a small book that talks about examples from the past of radical grace. And so our grassroots leaders today, engage in the same kind of radical forgiveness. And when we see it, we celebrate it.

Jim Spiegel [00:23:39]:

Sure. That's good. So, I wanna pivot now and talk about the seventeen seventy six unites project that you launched about five years ago. Yes. As a response to the sixteen nineteen project. Yes. Explain what the seventeen seventy six Unites project is and why, the project was so named. And do you think it do you think it achieved its aims?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:24:03]:

Oh, yeah. Well, first of all, in 1619 was the the Nicole Hammer James Jones, rather, from the New York Times got together with some black journalists and and wrote a book, a group of essays that really condemned the nation's founding and said that America should not be defined by 1776 of its birth, but 1619 when the first twenty African slaves came here. And therefore, America should be ever defined by its birth defect of slavery and that all whites are culpable and that racism is in our DNA and all whites are villains and all blacks are victims. And she won a Pulitzer Prize for her essay and the book began to teach the denigration of American values. But because the messenger was black, we at the Woodson Center felt that the counter message should also be authored by black. So we got together 23 scholars, and and we wanted to write a rejoinder, but we didn't want to write. We didn't want to debate her. We wanted to offer an aspirational and inspirational alternative narrative.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:25:25]:

So we wrote, got our essays together and we challenged. I was challenged her to a debate, but none of her scholars would sit with our scholars. Anyway, so we were able to develop curriculum from our 1776 and ninth. And it's now and it's been downloaded over 200,000 times in all 50 states. We've come up with a sequel called Pathways to Prosperity. And and we we give we give evidence about 20 blacks who were born slaves who died millionaires. We give endless examples of the golden 13 that after 1943, no blacks were naval officers. And Eleanor Roosevelt compelled her husband to train some so they took 16 black college graduates and trained them at the Naval Academy.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:26:22]:

But they said they gave them an eight weeks what they will get white cadets sixteen weeks. And when they tested them, they scored in the ninetieth percentile. And so they said they cheated. So they retested them. They scored the ninety third percentile. 13

Jim Spiegel [00:26:37]:

of

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:26:37]:

them went on to become officers and that test score stands today as the highest ever achieved at the Naval Academy. So we understood that the best defense against disrespect is performance. And there are endless examples of blacks who are achieved in the face of oppression. And that we celebrate them in these books. And we have now seven to 10 animations of these characters. Bessie Coleman, the first Black flyer. Biddy Mason, a woman who became a millionaire from slavery, in in in Los Angeles because we believe that the values, founding values, Judeo Christian values of this nation are fundamental to the survival of the poor. So therefore, we we stand to strongly support those

Jim Spiegel [00:27:34]:

values. Very good. So that's I'm very encouraged to hear that, the book has had that kind of impact, and I didn't realize it was that widely read. I just sold out in four weeks. Yeah. I would say required reading to anyone who's remotely interested in this issue, really, whether or not you're interested. It's such an important issue. And, the whole premise of the 1619 project is just it it misreads history in a in a fundamental way in in this way.

Jim Spiegel [00:28:06]:

And I've made this point, many times, and it was great to see it confirmed, sometimes very explicitly by some of the contributors, that the the the problem was not America. The problem was the enlightenment age. It was the, the kind of the zeitgeist, the spirit of the age. And I've challenged people. Name me one country on earth that did not have slavery in the eighteenth century.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:28:29]:

Right.

Jim Spiegel [00:28:30]:

I I think only Japan it was only in Japan where it was illegal. It was all over Asia, all over Africa, all over Europe and South America, as well as North America. The there so it's really barking up the wrong tree. And the fact is what you have in The US constitution, the bill of rights, and the declaration of independence, even though it was not applied as as well as it should have been at the time, still, you had the principles for what was ultimately achieved later, you know, the the emancipation proclamation and then the civil rights movement a century after that. But, boy, that's lost on a lot of people, isn't it?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:29:11]:

It really is. But I think that it's had quite an impact when you have, black scholars. Because once you say something is in someone's DNA, there's no way to change it. So what do you do with a 1619 premise that America is is forgiven? What is the strategy? You know? And and and I really think that a lot of the crisis that we're facing today, particularly with our children, it is when you constantly tell young people that somehow they are victims or they're villains, after a while, perhaps they begin to accept it and believe it and therefore feel discouraged. It's it's not a healthy way to conduct a society.

Jim Spiegel [00:29:59]:

And it's a kind of moral determinism.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:30:02]:

It is. Right?

Jim Spiegel [00:30:03]:

And, it's a denial of a basic moral freedom that everyone has.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:30:08]:

Yeah. When, people are inspired when to achieve, when you show them victories that are possible, not constantly reminding them of of of of of injuries to be avoided. Can you imagine a coach saying to a team, they're bigger than we are, they beat us a lot, they're better equipped, they they train harder, they got a bigger booster club. Now get out there and do your best.

Jim Spiegel [00:30:35]:

So you, obviously, as someone who was working in the civil rights movement in the sixties, you've closely followed the work of Martin Luther King junior, during that time and actually met him, briefly in the in the late nineteen sixties, I believe. Yes. How do how do you think he would assess our current cultural moment in The US as regards race relations and festering problems in urban communities?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:31:02]:

Well, he you know, he died moving away from from race more to economic issues because Doctor. King believed what good does it do to have the right to live in a neighborhood of your choosing or eating in a restaurant of your choice if you don't have the economic means to exercise that right? And so he was fighting for the garbage workers and the trash collectors fighting for economic rights. But again, he was also a man who believed leadership has to help shape, you know, the future and not just reflect it. He was a contrarian. Oh, for sure. But he also he made some bold statements like that we must reach down into the deep dark regions of our soul and sign and ink our own emancipation proclamation. He was saying the same thing that Chuck Swindell was saying, that 10% of who we are is external, but 90% is the attitude about the 10%. That renewal redemption has to come from within the soul of the person.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:32:12]:

That the victimizer may have knocked you down, but it is the victim that has to get up.

Jim Spiegel [00:32:18]:

Very good. Of course, another civil rights leader in the sixties that was assassinated, was took a very different approach, Malcolm X, you know, the by any means necessary. I've often wondered what would have become of him after he went to, he made his pilgrimage to Mecca, and he came back changed. And, of course, I think by then, he had broken from Elijah Muhammad, the nation of Islam, and he knew that was basically a a death sentence. But he seemed to be moving in a different direction there, and we can only speculate. Have you thought about that? One, did you ever meet Malcolm X, and what do you think about?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:33:01]:

I haven't met him. But a week before he died, I was prepared to go on a train and follow him.

Jim Spiegel [00:33:07]:

Is that right?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:33:08]:

Yes. Once he made that change, I was prepared to follow him because the where I differed from King and the whole civil rights movement, the civil rights movement sought equality. Malcolm X assumed it and sought an opportunity to exercise it. In other words, and he was not a great integrationist. I was not an integrationist either. And so Malcolm believed in self determination and that's what attracted me to him. I'm more of a follower of Malcolm once he changed than I am King because I believe in self determination. I don't believe in this integration as a strategy.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:33:54]:

In fact, I debated it for Julius Chambers. He was a black PhD lawyer from Harvard before the New York Bar Association, and we were debating integration. And I said midway through our debate, I said, Julius, if you have two situations, situation A, that is it is, integrated where there's diminished excellence. Situation b, that's black, where there's excellence, where should we send our children? He said a. I said, well, this debate's over. If you believe that we should sacrifice excellence for integration, you and I so Malcolm x, that that's Malcolm in in the King position. That's why I'm more for self determination.

Jim Spiegel [00:34:43]:

Interesting.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:34:44]:

But that comes from within you. It doesn't come no one can give you that.

Jim Spiegel [00:34:48]:

And Malcolm's story just embodies that in in in the most vivid way. I mean, the guy had, dropped out of school probably when he was in the sixth grade. He was a street hustler. He ended up, you know, involved in all this crime, and he was he was put in prison, I think, for about nine years. He could barely read, and, that's where he encountered that, that fellow inmate who had connections with Nation of Islam and, inspired him to educate himself. Right? And he here he is in a prison, and he he began trying to read the books in the prison library. He found that there were too many words he couldn't understand, so he decided to read the dictionary. And he says he he read the dictionary and began it with he said, I'll never forget that that that picture of the aardvark on the left side of the page, the dictionary, and he went from there.

Jim Spiegel [00:35:43]:

He said, the great thing about a good dictionary, it's like a a a encyclopedia, and you learn about science and history and philosophy, and and that was just the beginning for him. And by the time he left prison, he was he had the equivalent of multiple master's degrees, and then he ended up speaking at Ivy League colleges. It's just and that was just something he decided to do. Right? I mean, he was a thug. And, you know, after he really educated himself, he was as knowledgeable as anybody on earth. So that really does illustrate what you're talking about.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:36:16]:

He was also faithful to his wife. Mhmm. Well, there you go. FBI followed him, and all they could report is that he goes home at night. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:36:28]:

Unlike certain other civil rights activists. Yeah.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:36:33]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:36:35]:

So you've talked a little bit, about your Christian faith. Could you talk a little bit more and specifically about, your Christian faith journey and how you've integrated that with your work, how it's inspired your work, and so on.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:36:52]:

When I, my first glimpse at at my faith is when I dropped out of high school and went into the military in the fifties. And then I was working at a juvenile when I got out, I was working at a juvenile jail. As I was working on my degree in math, I was in the space program. And so I was working on the degree in math and I was working at a juvenile jail eight hours a day and I went to school seven hours a day. And I was locked behind three doors with 65 juveniles, no program. And but I fell in love with these kids, worked four to 12 shift. Six of them I would have I would have adopted if I had the money. I said, I've got the redirect.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:37:39]:

So one night when I took him in an unsupervised area of the jail and to give them a little party because I would get money from the other guards to get something for my boys. And when I came back on the unit, all of them stood up and applauded me and I turned on my heels and just walked on the grounds for twenty minutes. Stuff was flying all over. I didn't know what was happening to me. I thought I was going crazy, but I realized it was a burning bush experience before I knew what a burning bush was. But it wasn't until a decade later that I was walking in with any gang work, walking with a man, Leon Watkins, in South Central, living in a drug and crime ridden gang neighborhood. And he put up wanted posters for the East Side Crips gang. And one night they all came and he came down the street confronting two carloads of them.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:38:38]:

And the leader said, I heard you're looking for me. He said, what do you want? He said, I wanna talk to you about your life. They sat on a trash can for three hours. The next day, he had him in bible study. And then a week later, he had all 26 members of the gang in Bible study. They went from terrorizing the community to protecting it. So I, so I asked Leon, how did you do that? He read from the gospel. So every time I encountered a situation, I say, what's the gospel say about this, Leon? And so I saw Christ in action through a man named Leon Watkins, just a power of Christ in one man, was able to exercise.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:39:22]:

So from there, I just understood. So there was a practical pathway towards salvation and redemption. But it was through learning from and being guided and inspired by brother Leon Watkins. Well, that's great.

Jim Spiegel [00:39:41]:

Mister Woodson, you've clearly lived a a purpose driven life as, Rick Morey would say. Here's a final question for you. It's the classic philosophical question. What would you say is the ultimate meaning of life?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:39:56]:

The meaning of life is when you joy in serving others. There's just no higher purpose. I don't achieve. I don't seek to be famous. I don't seek to be celebrated. But when I meet a young man who says, if it wasn't for what you did for me, I would be dead or in jail. When when you get that affirmation, there's no greater feeling of meaning and that somehow God has used you. I don't I don't attribute it to any special, talents that I have, but all I know that nothing gives me more joy than to see a delivered soul.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:40:41]:

Amen. It's love, isn't it? Yes. It's something you never get used to. And I hear it on father's day. They call me. The young men we've had, my wife and I've had them living in our house. The values are not something that you necessarily it can be taught. It can be caught.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:41:02]:

And that's why Billy Graham said that his only one of his regrets is that he sought converts when he should have been seeking disciples.

Jim Spiegel [00:41:13]:

Which is how the great commission is termed. Right? You know, Jesus says make disciples.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:41:19]:

Yes.

Jim Spiegel [00:41:19]:

Don't don't just evangelize. That's kind of the the front end. We need to make disciples, and that is to make true followers of Jesus, those who who live and walk in his ways.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:41:31]:

Yes. And and so that's why I have a watch on an Apple Watch and it has a Mickey Mouse on the screen. And I do this to remind me not to take myself too seriously. I think humility is something that you've got to practice every day. It's like I tell my young people, yield when you have the right of way. Even if you're late for an appointment and you're going down the highway, yield. And sometimes by just practicing that, it tempers the inclination to be important.

Jim Spiegel [00:42:12]:

Well, that's consistent with the the way of kenosis that, the apostle Paul talks about in fill Philippians two. You know, he talks about the nature of Christ and highlights that particular quality or virtue, which is humility. And, if Augustine is right, and I suspect he is, that pride is the mother of all the vices, then we should be actively, consciously, addressing that and repenting from that every day, every hour, maybe every minute, even on the freeway by practicing humility. That's a good word.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:42:49]:

It really does. And even it doesn't matter how old or how experienced you think you are or how accomplished you are. It just helps to cleanse yourself of self importance. One last word, you can never be humiliated if you're humble. There you go.

Jim Spiegel [00:43:08]:

Amen. Good. So, yeah, of, it has an inoculating effect. Right?

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:43:14]:

It really does.

Jim Spiegel [00:43:16]:

Well, I really appreciate this time. This is wonderful. Thank you for all your work, and, God bless you as you continue in that.

Robert Woodson Sr. [00:43:23]:

Alright. And thank you for the opportunity to to share.

Jim Spiegel [00:43:32]:

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