Ted Kluck [00:00:00]:

So with the advent of the Internet, with the advent of social media, with the advent of streaming, we don't have very many, what I'll call, like, monocultural experiences anymore. So, like, for example, my college orientation, this was, like, 1994, and it happened to be the day that the OJ Bronco chase happened. And there were one of these, like, big, you know, first gen big screen televisions in the cafeteria, and everybody's huddled around this thing, consuming the thing at the same time. Right? And growing up in the seventies and eighties and nineties, we had all kinds of these moments. Right? But now, you know, with the phone being the main kind of conveyor of status or whatever, we don't have a lot of these. So sports provides these kind of great monocultural events.

Jim Spiegel [00:00:52]:

Welcome to the Kalos Center Podcast. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Kalos Center podcast. Our guest today is Ted Cluck. Ted is associate professor of communication arts at Union University and a prolific writer, most of which deals either with sports or theology. His work has appeared in ESPN, the the magazine, the sports spectrum, espn.com, and he has a regular column in the Jackson Sun. Ted has coauthored dozens of books including Facing Tyson and the Extraordinary Life of a Mediocre Jock. And on the theological side, why we're not emergent and why we love the church, both of which are coauthored with Ted's frequent partner in literary crime, Kevin DeYoung.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:49]:

And also, work that is concerned with both sports and theology, The Reason for Sports, A Christian Fanifesto. He has authored the Christian Gentleman's Smoking Companion as well as the Gut Check Guide to Publishing, both of which are coauthored with Zach Bartles. Ted's work is critically acclaimed, and two of his books have won Christianity Today Awards. Ted also cohosts two podcasts, one with Zach Bartels called the gut check podcast, and one that's simply called Cluck. Finally, Ted is the blessed husband of one, Kristen Cluck, and they're the proud parents of two grown sons. So Ted Cluck, my irrepressible friend, welcome to the Kalos Center podcast.

Ted Kluck [00:02:35]:

Man, it is so good to be here, and it's so good to see your face, brother. And our friendship goes back a long way, man. You were the, like, cool professor with mystique at Taylor University, and our wives were friends. They they married each of us respectively, and then we were kinda thrown together, which, just for me resulted in this really surprising friendship. I was a little bit intimidated by you due to you being the cool professor, and I was just this young guy trying to get my feet underneath me. And we started talking about the the New Orleans Saints back in the day, and you came to watch me play semi pro football, and the the rest is publishing and academic history.

Jim Spiegel [00:03:13]:

That's right. Right. I remember the first time we visited your apartment, the studio apartment in downtown Wandsonsie, Indiana.

Ted Kluck [00:03:19]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:03:20]:

And I I remember just kinda looking at your desk and and saw there was poetry there that you had written. And Yeah. To me at the time, you're just this jock. And I thought, what this guy this guy actually thinks he can write?

Ted Kluck [00:03:33]:

Yeah. Right. No. I know. 30 Thanks for for just picking at my greatest fear there. You know? Just going right to the pain point. That's good.

Jim Spiegel [00:03:40]:

I got more.

Ted Kluck [00:03:41]:

Yeah. Alright. Alright.

Jim Spiegel [00:03:43]:

30 books later, I have to say, maybe you can write, Ted. Maybe.

Ted Kluck [00:03:47]:

Yeah. Well, what's crazy about that is number one, great apartment. That apartment was incredible. It had the three big vertical windows, the big, like, steel door. It was like a TV apartment right across the street from the Herat there in Muncie. You remember that that spot? And, yeah, dude. I I don't know why, but I was dabbling in poetry. And then I got some some poems published, and I realized that poetry publishers paid in, like, copies of the magazine.

Ted Kluck [00:04:12]:

And I remember having this feeling, like, literally no one in my life will want this. You know, I can't think of one person to give this to. And that's when I I decided to lean into sports and, like, the stuff that I know. But, man, it's been a wild ride. The Lord's been incredibly kind to to give me my wife who really encouraged me to write and some great people, some great professors along the way. Doctor Joe Bernworth, your old colleague, who was a just a gem of a human being and a real encouragement to me, and and the Lord's allowed some things to pop. So it's been a a cool run.

Jim Spiegel [00:04:45]:

Yep. Wow. Well, keep it going, my man. My introduction really just scratched the surface in terms of summarizing your publication. So let me just begin with these questions. How did how did you become such a prolific writer, and how much caffeine do you consume on a daily basis?

Ted Kluck [00:05:02]:

Yeah. So the thing about writing was and this kind of dovetails into what we're gonna talk about vis a vis athletics. When I was an athlete, I was a freakishly hard worker, you know, and my dad had kind of instilled in me this idea that I wasn't a great athlete and I had to outwork everybody. So I just had a kind of maniacal, like, approach to it. And then for a while, it seemed like the Lord was gonna take football away from me. And, really, that was a kindness. He was disabusing me of an idol, which I I desperately needed at the time, although I didn't see it that way. But then when I found writing, I just kinda took that idea of being a freakishly hard worker, really efficient, and just started going for stuff in the writing space.

Ted Kluck [00:05:44]:

So, yeah, first, it was poetry, and then I got this little opportunity to write with ESPN the magazine doing humor, and that just kinda took off. You know? I was able to parlay that into other opportunities with them. And then my first book, Facing Tyson, was the product of me meeting a guy in Orlando, Florida who was sweeping his sidewalk, who happened to be former heavyweight champion, Pinkland Thomas. And so we struck up a friendship. He asked me to write his life story, which I had no idea how to write books. I I flew home and Googled how to write a book proposal and, just kinda went after it, man, and dove in. And, you know, from being a a writer yourself, you you get told no some. You take some shots.

Ted Kluck [00:06:24]:

You take some hits. And I think football taught me, you know, I don't have thick skin. I grieve things hard, but I don't grieve them for very long. And so when I would get a no or I I would have a closed door, I would grieve it, and I would grieve it hard, but then just get on the horse immediately and keep going. And and so I'm really grateful that the Lord was able to build some of those things into me that allowed me to do this for for a living, you know, which is rare.

Jim Spiegel [00:06:51]:

So it always feels personal. Right? The the rejections. Right? Yeah. If you are a writer, if if that is part of your essence, then no matter how formal or gentle or whatever the rejection is, it always stabs you in the heart, doesn't it?

Ted Kluck [00:07:07]:

Gosh. Yes. Yeah. And I think it's one of these really weird tensions, right, where being intensely personal probably allows us to be good writers. Right? Especially in the interview room as you're connecting with people and putting them at ease and asking hard questions, you know. So that that's not a skill set that I wanted to lose when I would hear these writing, you know, professionals say you gotta have thick skin. And I'm like, man, I just don't think I have it. I think I'm very thin.

Ted Kluck [00:07:36]:

But, it is personal and and you wanna keep it personal.

Jim Spiegel [00:07:40]:

Well, the thin skin's alright.

Ted Kluck [00:07:42]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:07:42]:

If you get motivated by the pain. And again Yeah. It is like football's great analogy because you have four chances to make a first down. You have multiple plays to get to the end zone. And you on any given drive, usually, there will be lost yardage. Yeah. There will be pain along the way and frustration, but you still reach the end zone.

Ted Kluck [00:08:06]:

That's it. Physical pain, emotional pain, you lose a rep. You've got, like, thirty seconds to grieve it and then expunge it and try to solve the problem, you know. And I I think I will always love that about football, you know. And it will always be fascinating to me on that level. You know, writing turned out to be not so dissimilar, which was crazy.

Jim Spiegel [00:08:27]:

So your book, Facing Tyson

Ted Kluck [00:08:29]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:08:30]:

That fascinated me from the start. Just the whole premise there. Can you talk a little bit about

Ted Kluck [00:08:35]:

that? Yeah. I appreciate it. Well, it was my first book. It was the fruit of meeting this guy, Pinkland. I was visiting my in laws in Inland, Florida. It was about a 80 degrees, and I was bored. And I did a very out of character thing for an introvert, which is go and introduce myself to a person who looked vaguely familiar. And he had this fascinating story where he was a heroin user for the balance of his career, and he would use in between fights and then get clean long enough to train and fight.

Ted Kluck [00:09:04]:

And he just had this fascinating story, and I wanted to write it. And at that point, I had done some short form stuff for ESPN. I was really kicking the tires on, can I be a longer form writer? Can I tell the long interview and do that well? And so I wrote Pink's chapter. That was the, you know, the kind of proposal piece, the pitch piece. And then, you know, I ended up doing this thing where I interviewed 15 guys who fought Mike. I got to interview Mike.

Jim Spiegel [00:09:30]:

What was that like? What's Tyson like in person?

Ted Kluck [00:09:33]:

Oh my gosh, Jim. Fascinating. You would love him. He's one of the most and he he's become a bit of a self parody in the last twenty years. Right? He's doing the weed stuff and the mushroom stuff, and he's kinda become sad. But at the time, he was at the end of his career. It was right after his fight with Kevin McBride who knocked him out, in the MCI Center in Washington, DC, and I was there. And I thought, this guy's gonna be a monster.

Ted Kluck [00:09:56]:

You know? He's just gonna be surly and sullen, and he was the opposite. He was reflective. He was introspective. He understands, Jim, the total depravity of man and of his own heart more than many believers that I've met. You know, he really feels guilt and pain for his sin life. And I will always find a person like that to be compelling and trustworthy. And that's exactly what he was. He was fascinating.

Ted Kluck [00:10:24]:

I could've listened to him talk for hours. He was a storyteller. Just one of these preternaturally gifted people. And I remember after that interview, I prayed for him, and I prayed for him for quite some time because I thought this would be a compelling heart for the Lord to draw to himself. And, you know, it appears that that hasn't happened yet, but, I still find him interesting. I watched his bit of theater with Jake Paul, and and it was sad and, all of that. Fascinating character and really every single guy I interviewed for that book was so interesting to me. I was young enough.

Ted Kluck [00:11:01]:

I think I was, like, 28, 20 nine when I was doing that. So, like, I was still wide eyed. I was still, you know, pretty innocent myself, and, it was just a fascinating experience. And the and the stories kinda wrote themselves. You know? Sure.

Jim Spiegel [00:11:15]:

Yeah. So just to kinda pull back a bit and just to talk about sports more generally, massively popular throughout The US and globally. Many sports, you know, soccer is a worldwide phenomenon. In The US, football, baseball, basketball, hockey, increasingly soccer.

Ted Kluck [00:11:36]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:11:36]:

I'm curious what would you say the reason is for for athletic events being so popular and not just now, but down through history? What what is the popular appeal?

Ted Kluck [00:11:49]:

Yeah. Well, I'll address the now part first because I think it's really interesting. So with the advent of the Internet, with the advent of social media, with the advent of streaming, we don't have very many what I'll call, like, monocultural experiences anymore. So, like, for example, my college orientation was, like, 1994, and it happened to be the day that the OJ Bronco chase happened. And there were one of these, like, big, you know, first gen big screen televisions in the cafeteria, and everybody's huddled around this thing consuming the thing at the same time. Right? And growing up in the seventies and eighties and nineties, we had all kinds of these moments. Right? But now, you know, with the phone being the main kind of conveyor of status or whatever, We don't have a lot of these. So sports provides these kind of great monocultural events.

Ted Kluck [00:12:45]:

So I mentioned Tyson. And, you know, being a teacher on a college campus, it was absurd to me that my students were experiencing a Mike Tyson fight night, you know, because this was the purview of, like, guys our age in the And so for Tyson to be fighting again, even though it was a gentleman's agreement and it was just theater or whatever, my kids, my students got to experience the kinda hype and the build up and the excitement of a Tyson fight night and a monocultural moment that they were all consuming together at the same time. So I think that's a big part of the appeal now. It gives people something to talk about down through the ages. And this is, like, not a new take or a fresh take, but I think it's been a way to bring different people together around a common thing. So I've I've said for a long time, you know, so one of your questions was, are you still an athlete? I am. I'm still playing, so I wanna play till I'm 50. I play in one or two football games every year.

Ted Kluck [00:13:43]:

You know? I'm 49 now. I hope to to keep doing that. And I coach. I coach at an HBCU called Lane College, which is a division two HBCU. And I've long said I've never seen race relations work better than in a sports context. You know? So I'm a I'm the only white guy on staff at this HBCU. I've done it for a decade. I've had nothing but amazing experiences.

Ted Kluck [00:14:08]:

They've been so kind, so warm. You know, the relate the relating has been rich. So I think that's why I keep going back because you're in search of the magical moment, not only athletically, but relationally. And sports has provided a lot of that. You now you said you had a theory on this. I wanna hear yours.

Jim Spiegel [00:14:26]:

Okay. So Yeah. My theory, I think I would argue it explains why sports would be the thing that so many people would be willing to fasten on in real time. I mean, what you've identified is that fact. But there's a deeper question. What makes sports worth that rather than some other thing?

Ted Kluck [00:14:46]:

Okay.

Jim Spiegel [00:14:47]:

And I think it has to do with the fact that athletic events, when the games are well designed

Ted Kluck [00:14:53]:

Mhmm.

Jim Spiegel [00:14:54]:

They provide us with essentially loosely scripted improvisational theater Yes. And drama. You have a narrative that in the game last night between the Pacers and the New York Knicks, great example of something almost Elizabethan Mhmm. In terms of what kind of compelling drama that provided. Yes. It was improvisational in that you don't know what's coming next. In rare cases, like at the end of a football game, say, where the it's basically deciding the last minute, you know, it's gonna be the Genuflect kneel down just to run out the clock.

Ted Kluck [00:15:30]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:15:30]:

But for the for the most part, you don't know what's coming next. But you have a drama there that has there's a kind of thematic

Ted Kluck [00:15:39]:

Mhmm.

Jim Spiegel [00:15:40]:

Quality there. We can talk about a game in terms of the highlights or the theme of the game, you know, who the stars were, the ebb and flow. If you're you're like me, I'm sure you can kinda report to your wife or whomever when they ask about a game. Well, how'd it go? And, you know, you can start from the first quarter or the first inning and run through the whole thing almost play by play.

Ted Kluck [00:16:03]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:16:03]:

It's a compelling narrative. It it is theater. Yes. And for that reason, it it is a subcategory of our love of beauty Yes. Which is universal.

Ted Kluck [00:16:16]:

Yes. Oh, that's good. I'll give you well, a couple of personal examples and then a and then a, like, a global example. So, personally, more and more, I find myself less a fan of teams and more drawn to certain aesthetics. Like, I just love the way the, like, Shanahan wide zone offense looks when I watch it. And so I'm I'm drawn to that. I'll watch that. There are certain uniform experiences.

Ted Kluck [00:16:44]:

There's like I watch I like watching games that took place on, like, the old astroturf even though it was hellish and brutal to play on, like and I I know there's something, like, nostalgic in there happening, but, like, I just am drawn to certain experiences like that. And I think it's so true what you're saying. The global example is, you know, two years ago when Aaron Rodgers made his big debut with the New York Jets. And for, like, a couple of months, he's the king of the greatest city in the world. Right? He's the king of New York City and he's everywhere. And he goes out and he takes the second snap of the game and he tears his Achilles or the fourth snap or whatever it was. And to your point, I turned to my wife and I said, this is Shakespearean. You know, this is just there's something bigger happening here.

Ted Kluck [00:17:30]:

And I happen to think it's, you know, it was the Lord calling Rogers to humility and repentance at some level. Like, there's gotta be a bigger purpose for this. And I think more and more, the older I get, I'm drawn to, like, those kinds of stories in sports. You know what I mean?

Jim Spiegel [00:17:45]:

Yep. At the end of the day, it's these human lives that matter.

Ted Kluck [00:17:49]:

Absolutely.

Jim Spiegel [00:17:50]:

Right.

Ted Kluck [00:17:50]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:17:51]:

And the, for all of the the theater and the competitive compellingness of these games and for all of our absolute devotion to our teams

Ted Kluck [00:18:01]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:18:02]:

What matters most is the consequences for these these these human souls that are involved.

Ted Kluck [00:18:08]:

That's it.

Jim Spiegel [00:18:08]:

And they've they've got their their own life dramas. They have their families. Who knows what's going on with their kids, their wives, their, their their loved ones. And it's easy to miss when you love a team. And but as you get older, of course, hopefully, our values mature. And I think that's Yeah. That's why I have the same experience. And and that perspective, you you could probably agree with this.

Jim Spiegel [00:18:34]:

It takes the sting out of even heartbreaking losses Sure.

Ted Kluck [00:18:38]:

Absolutely. If you've seen something beautiful, if you've seen a great performance yeah, there have been games as a player, as a coach, even as a fan that I've walked away from where Kristen, my wife, would think that I would be really wrecked by an outcome. And I've just been like, no. That was beautiful, man. That was hard fought. I loved it. I loved the experience. You know? Everybody did their best.

Ted Kluck [00:19:04]:

There was gentlemanliness exhibited. Now that's not always there. But when it is, it's really special, and I think it speaks to that part of us, Jim, that is created in God's image. I'll give you another example. Tell me if this, like, drifted through your transom at all. This is a few years ago when Andrew Luck retired unexpectedly. He gave the most amazing press conference, and I think I even wrote about it. I wrote that it was the most Christian press conference I'd ever heard.

Ted Kluck [00:19:32]:

Despite him, I I think he's not Christian. You know, I don't I don't know Andrew Luck to be a believer, but the things he was saying, the humility he was saying them with really resonated with me as a believer. And I'm like, man, that's the thing I've always wanted to see from all these, like, kneel down chest thumping cross on the wrist tape Christian athletes. Like, that presser was the one that I'd always wanted to hear. You know?

Jim Spiegel [00:19:58]:

I haven't seen that.

Ted Kluck [00:19:58]:

I know. Watch it. Yeah. Go back and watch it. It was real unusual. So it was like, after a preseason game, he just, like, walked off the field and went into the press room and was like, I'm retiring. And then he gave this, like, twenty minute through a veil of tears thing where he's thanking the equipment guy and the the clubhouse manager and, like, all these people who had been good to him in his career. And, man, it was rich.

Ted Kluck [00:20:23]:

You know? And it was not a part of the contest itself, but it was one of these athletic moments you just look at it and go, there's a lot of good happening here. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:20:33]:

Yeah. I always I always admired that guy, and not just as a Colts fan.

Ted Kluck [00:20:37]:

I think

Jim Spiegel [00:20:38]:

he handled himself well

Ted Kluck [00:20:39]:

I agree.

Jim Spiegel [00:20:40]:

All the way to the end. Yeah. And there is a kind of exquisite beauty even in the tragic losses. And I say that as a Chicago Cubs fan, as a as a Detroit Lions fan, you know, some perennial losers.

Ted Kluck [00:20:53]:

Oh, yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:20:54]:

Yeah. That that part's Elizabethan too.

Ted Kluck [00:20:56]:

It sure is, man. So as a as a Lions fan, let me ask you a quick question. So my poor son, Tristan, with whom I've shared football his entire life, I coached him when he was little. I've gotten to play with him. I've gotten to suit up with him in five games.

Jim Spiegel [00:21:11]:

Oh, that's great.

Ted Kluck [00:21:12]:

Which is just a dream come true for a dad. It's unreal, dude, to be sweating, bleeding in a huddle. You look across. You see your son. He's a better athlete than me. He's a freak, dude. But, yeah, sadly, I raised him as a Lions fan because we were in the Detroit media market at the time. And this poor kid, like, who's a vicious competitor just growing up watching his team go three and thirteen every year, but loving Matthew Stafford.

Ted Kluck [00:21:39]:

And seeing Stafford just get the crap kicked out of him physically and get up off the deck time and time again, so tough. It was really fun for us to see him go to LA and win a ring. That's so good. And even though it wasn't our team, quote, unquote, it was, like, awesome to see that happen for

Jim Spiegel [00:21:56]:

you. That's our guy.

Ted Kluck [00:21:57]:

That's our guy. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Jim Spiegel [00:21:59]:

And who knows? You know, maybe the Lombardi Trophy will be hoisted in Detroit. We have reason to be hopeful

Ted Kluck [00:22:06]:

We do.

Jim Spiegel [00:22:06]:

In a way that we haven't had in

Ted Kluck [00:22:08]:

That'd be something, wouldn't it?

Jim Spiegel [00:22:09]:

Really my lifetime. You know, I think in 1970 and '91, there was you still knew that, you know, in '70 that the the the Cowboys and the Vikings were better. But who knows? Maybe that was I was so young. It was, like, my first season I ever followed, and I cried when they were ousted five nothing in that playoff game. And then in '91, knew that the Redskins were better. But, now okay, they just might not only have a decent shot at Super Bowl

Ted Kluck [00:22:39]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:22:39]:

It feels like they are one of the the best, if not the best team in the NFC.

Ted Kluck [00:22:43]:

Well, talk about fun teams to watch. Right? So, like, I'm an o line guy. I love offensive line play, and they've just built this unbelievable line that they can run behind. They can play action off of it. You know, Jameson Williams is the burner. Amon Ra is the underneath guy. It's just so fun to watch, man. And the uniform is a beauty, dude.

Ted Kluck [00:23:05]:

The Honolulu blue and the silver, that's always been a nice time. Yeah. You know?

Jim Spiegel [00:23:09]:

I remember as a kid thinking, man, it's unfair. You know, I was my favorite animals is with a lot of young boys are tigers and lions. Absolutely. Growing up in Detroit, it's like, how can I be so lucky? My I've got my baseball team named the tigers Yeah. My football team named the lions, and then you get the red wings. It's the coolest logo

Ted Kluck [00:23:28]:

in all

Jim Spiegel [00:23:29]:

of sports.

Ted Kluck [00:23:29]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's unbelievable. So the 1970 Lions, would that have been, like, Carl Sweetan, Milt Plumb? Like, who was the quarterback then?

Jim Spiegel [00:23:39]:

It was Greg Landry and

Ted Kluck [00:23:40]:

Greg Landry.

Jim Spiegel [00:23:41]:

And yeah. I can go through the whole lineup. You had No.

Ted Kluck [00:23:43]:

No. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:23:44]:

Steve Owens at running back, Alty Taylor, Earl McCullough, and who is another wide receiver. And he had Mike Lucci as a linebacker.

Ted Kluck [00:23:54]:

Oh, I love Lucci. Super cool looking guy. Cool glasses. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:23:59]:

Started a started a fitness center in Detroit.

Ted Kluck [00:24:02]:

Outstanding. Yeah. You love to see it. Did you ever watch this is getting real deep, man, and we'll get back on track here momentarily. One of my all time favorite movies is a 1968 Alan Alden movie called Paper Lion. Did you ever see it?

Jim Spiegel [00:24:15]:

Yeah. George Plimpton.

Ted Kluck [00:24:16]:

George Plimpton. That was my first favorite book. My dad brought it home for me from a trip. My dad was a pilot, and I had no idea this was literature. I had no idea that Plympton was, like, this amazing writer. I just thought it was a really cool story. You know?

Jim Spiegel [00:24:30]:

That was a pivotal moment for you.

Ted Kluck [00:24:31]:

It was huge, dude. Yeah. It was massive. So shout out to my dad for bringing me up.

Jim Spiegel [00:24:35]:

Explain the premise of that for our

Ted Kluck [00:24:37]:

So the premise was it was 1963 and, you know, obviously, pre Internet and being able to Google people and find out their background. But what had happened was George Plympton was the editor of the Paris Review, and he was kind of an armchair weekend athlete. And he said, wouldn't it be cool if I went undercover as a last string quarterback for the Detroit lions in their training camp and wrote about the experience kind of inside what an NFL training camp looked like. And he developed these rich friendships with, like, Alex Karas, who was an amazing character, John Gordy, these big, bigger than life characters. And Night Train Lane Dick Night Train Lane was on that team and, you know, just wrote this incredible piece of what we now call immersive journalism or creative nonfiction. We didn't have those categories back then. But, man, I just fell in love with it, and I would read it every fall before my season started as kinda like a pregame, you know, to my experiences. And

Jim Spiegel [00:25:38]:

That's good.

Ted Kluck [00:25:39]:

Unbeknownst to me, that was making me a good writer, I think. You know? Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:25:43]:

No. Was that made into a documentary?

Ted Kluck [00:25:45]:

No. It was made into a narrative film, in 1968. So Alan Alda played Plimpton.

Jim Spiegel [00:25:51]:

And That's right.

Ted Kluck [00:25:52]:

Yeah. Lauren Hutton was in it and Carys and Gordy. The unique thing about that in the pantheon of sports films is that they use the actual athletes as actors. And so Carys went on to have this career as an actor, but he had a kinda natural crackle of charisma.

Jim Spiegel [00:26:08]:

Yeah. Of

Ted Kluck [00:26:09]:

course, Alan Alda was Alda.

Jim Spiegel [00:26:11]:

I think Alex Carys was in some Mel Brooks films or at least Blazing Saddles.

Ted Kluck [00:26:15]:

No. He was in Blazing Saddles famously. You know, he's really great in that, and he he Punches the horse. Yeah. Punches the horse. That's right. And, He'll

Jim Spiegel [00:26:22]:

never get away with

Ted Kluck [00:26:23]:

that today. No. But, yeah, Carys was amazing, and we my dad and I, we love that film. It came on, like, cable late at night. One night, he let me stay up late with him and watch it. Really formative. So So

Jim Spiegel [00:26:34]:

do so do you have a favorite sport? I mean, it's sounding like football is your favorite,

Ted Kluck [00:26:38]:

but Yeah. I mean, my dad was a small college offensive line coach. He coached at Taylor in the early eighties, and he would bring me out to the practices when I was, like, six, seven years old. I just fell in love with it. I loved everything about it and loved playing. And, yeah, I think football is my first love. Boxing is probably a close second. In early adulthood, I started boxing.

Ted Kluck [00:26:58]:

I sold it to my wife as, like, I need to go experience this so that I can write about it better, but, really, I just wanted to do it. And so, you know, I've been doing that on and off for the last, you know, twenty, twenty five years and have loved that. And, you know, those are my two big ones, but, you know, I get romantic about baseball in the summer. I'll, I'll watch some innings of baseball and get romantic about that, and I enjoy watching playoff hockey. That's a a fun time. So

Jim Spiegel [00:27:25]:

It is absolutely frenetic, isn't it?

Ted Kluck [00:27:27]:

It's so frenetic. And and, you know, I think you had a question in there. It's probably the next question. You know, whether I objectively think my sport is the best sport, My answer to that is no. Because, you know, one of the great things about sports writing was I got to be ringside at a lot of pro fights. I got to be courtside for a lot of NBA games, and I just marveled at the skill. You know, one of my favorite things to do covering the NBA was to go really early and watch the shoot arounds and the warm ups. And just seeing these guys hit from wherever on the floor when they were unguarded, I just marveled at it.

Ted Kluck [00:28:02]:

It. So I think in watching playoff hockey, the speed, the violence, the endurance, there's something magical about every sport. And my grandpa who pitched in the cub system, you know, way back in, like, the twenties and days, he said the hardest thing to do in sports was to hit a fastball, and I trust his judgment. You know? I I do. So I I think I find a little something about all of them to just marvel at, and that's a lot of fun.

Jim Spiegel [00:28:27]:

George Will, the great conservative, political commentator once said, that one of the great values of sports, professional sports, is they give us clear examples of excellence.

Ted Kluck [00:28:39]:

Yeah. Oh, good.

Jim Spiegel [00:28:40]:

And that's true about all of them. He was just a die hard baseball fan, and he preferred baseball. He would he would have said that baseball's the superior sport. Yeah. And he would sometimes make, pejorative comments about football

Ted Kluck [00:28:56]:

I know.

Jim Spiegel [00:28:56]:

You know, when when kind of exalting baseball. I don't think we need to do that, but he did. And one of the things he said that is very memorable is football features the two things we hate most about American life, violence and committee meetings.

Ted Kluck [00:29:11]:

That's so great. And and I remember that quote. It was a great one. I disagree. Although, I agree on the violence. Right? And I actually agree on the committee meetings too now that you mention it. And and you come out of the academic world, and we have to sit through a lot of committee meetings. And they are largely meaningless and a waste of time.

Ted Kluck [00:29:32]:

And this is one of this is one of the instances where I thank God for the Internet and the smartphone. Right? Because eBay has been my my friend during many a committee meeting. But the meetings in football are the most efficient versions of a meeting. You know? They're thirty seconds. They're between plays. Decisions are made quickly. Collaboration is efficient. One of my favorite authors, Jim Harrison, who wrote Legends of the Fall said, football is war without guns.

Ted Kluck [00:29:59]:

And I think that's apropos. You know? And I think Americans, good, bad, or indifferent, are drawn to that. And it feels, Jim and I know I'm making this argument for football being better. I don't even mean to do that. But it feels like the stakes are higher because there's only 16 or 17 games. Right? And there is this violent toll that the game takes on your body where you play it on a Saturday or Sunday. And if you're lucky, you feel almost okay by the next Saturday or Sunday, and then you have to go out and do it again. And so there's high stakes to it.

Ted Kluck [00:30:35]:

All the games matter. I think it is kinda magical in there.

Jim Spiegel [00:30:39]:

And it really is it's conceived on the military model because, one, it's a ground acquisition game. You're trying to take the other team's land. Yeah. And you do so through, a ground attack.

Ted Kluck [00:30:53]:

Yeah. That's right.

Jim Spiegel [00:30:54]:

And you have an aerial attack. And some of the even basic schematics in terms of defending against that attack have direct parallels to

Ted Kluck [00:31:04]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:31:05]:

Military strategy.

Ted Kluck [00:31:06]:

Flanking the blitz. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And, man, for a for a little boy, that was just beyond compelling. And and to me, it was like you know how little boys are kinda into the superhero thing? It was the closest you could get to actually being a superhero. You know? The muscle, the the outfit, the the bright colors, the pageantry, the violence, I I just needed it shot into my veins on a regular basis. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:31:35]:

There's something there's something about that time of year. Once August gets there and you can feel the football season coming

Ted Kluck [00:31:41]:

That's it.

Jim Spiegel [00:31:41]:

Oh, man. There yeah. There's nothing like it.

Ted Kluck [00:31:43]:

That's right.

Jim Spiegel [00:31:44]:

So for all for all of your love of sports Yeah. And appreciation of the great variety of sports, do you see or even are you annoyed by flaws in various sports in terms of how they're designed?

Ted Kluck [00:31:59]:

Yeah. I'll, I'll address that on a personal level and then a a broader level again. So, again, the Lord and his sovereignty and kindness, I think, made me aware of some of the greatest flaws in my own heart via sport. So I had this idolatrous relationship with sport, with football, with winning, with strength that I was just beginning to be disabused of when you met me. I had injured my leg at Taylor. I'd broken it twice. I thought my career was over. I was very bitter about it.

Ted Kluck [00:32:33]:

In retrospect, it was the greatest kindness. You know, not the greatest. We know what the greatest kindness is, but it was a great kindness. And then by the time you met me, the leg was feeling good again, and I was starting to kick the tires on playing semi pro for the Delaware County Thunder.

Jim Spiegel [00:32:48]:

Yeah. And I went to one of those games.

Ted Kluck [00:32:50]:

You You did.

Jim Spiegel [00:32:51]:

You caught you caught a two point conversion.

Ted Kluck [00:32:53]:

I caught a two point conversion. I had a sack. That was my, I think, my first game for the Thunder. And it I'll tell you, it was joyful in a way that it had never been when I had an idolatrous relationship with football because, you know, clearly, all the kind of status was stripped away from it. You know, it was this, like, meaningless game taking place on a junior high field, and I was just all in on the fun and the joy of it. And by God's grace, he's let me have that kind of relationship with it in perpetuity, and he's given me lots of other playing experiences over the last twenty five years that have been full of joy. So, yeah, I I think it does expose flaws, and I'm still convicted by it from time to time. I was convicted by it as a parent.

Ted Kluck [00:33:41]:

You know? There were there were moments with Tristan, I think, because he was such a good athlete, where I was just clutching it too tightly, and I was too invested in his experience or his approach looking like mine. And, man, I'll tell you, it resulted in great moments where I had to come to my child in a posture of repentance and say, please forgive me. And because his heart is tender and regenerate, he extended it. And, man, it was beautiful. You know? And our relationship is better for it. And it's one of those things that you realize is only possible because of Christ. So that's an example of the imperfection leading to something redemptive. As far as imperfections on a global scale, there are things that annoy me.

Ted Kluck [00:34:26]:

Like the NFL constantly tinkering with, like, pass interference rules and kickoff rules and, like, helmet to helmet collisions. And I would be more of the old school mind of, like, yo. This is a violent sport. It's war without guns. We all know what we're getting into. Like, let the strong safety, a la Steve Atwater, take the head off of the low crosser because that's actual it's actually a tactical moment where if you wanna run an in cut against Denver in the nineties, you know that Atwater is is lurking to take your head off. And so maybe you don't run the in cut or maybe you, you know, we try to attack the defense in different ways. I think I'm annoyed by that sort of constant tinkering.

Ted Kluck [00:35:15]:

I'm annoyed by how non football things, I e the draft, have become circuses and and how even the Super Bowl has become kind of a a parody of itself. Do you ever read Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace? No. Oh, man. That would, blow your mind, and I think you would enjoy it. And I know Wallace has become kind of a meme now, but, like, he wrote it's a satirical novel set in the late written in the late nineties set in the indiscriminate now ish future. And in the world building of the book, the Super Bowl has just become this, like, bloated, ridiculous parody of itself where if you play for the Eagles, you actually fly into the arena like an eagle, and it's part of the pregame pageantry. And it's ridiculous, and it's meant to be. But now I watch the Super Bowl, and I'm like, it's nearly that ridiculous.

Jim Spiegel [00:36:06]:

Yeah. There's we're all familiar with joke sports.

Ted Kluck [00:36:10]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:36:11]:

The stuff that's really contrived and, that's done in during off seasons, and you got all all that pageantry. Sometimes the Super Bowl begins to feel like that. You know? Just a a lot of this ridiculous sideshow. And by the time the game starts, it's like, oh, yeah. There's a football game coming.

Ted Kluck [00:36:29]:

Dude, yes. Have you have you been to an NBA game lately?

Jim Spiegel [00:36:33]:

Not lately, but I've been to a few.

Ted Kluck [00:36:35]:

Yeah. So I went to one last year. I have a a rich friend. It's good to have rich friends. But this guy, you know, he he's a banker. He had a box at, like, a Memphis Grizzlies game. And so, you know, we went and we got to enjoy the, like, buffet spread of food. And it was around Christmas time.

Ted Kluck [00:36:54]:

And I get to my seat, which is plush and, like, an office chair. And there's a TV monitor at the seat. So I couldn't not, like, flip channels. And it occurred to me that Die Hard was on. One of my favorite movies of all time was on this television. And so I've got, like, a steak and Die Hard, and there's, like, a concert happening in one edge of the arena. And it occurred to me that the game itself was completely ancillary. And in fact, very few people were paying attention to it.

Ted Kluck [00:37:23]:

And it occurred to me that, like, the regular season NBA experience exists really now just for degenerate gamblers because, you know, the the NBA playoffs are, like, six months long. Almost everybody makes it. Like, it doesn't matter what happens in, like, you know, Clippers, Grizzlies in December. This really only matters if you're, like, addicted to DraftKings or whatever. And so I guess that kinda makes me sad too. You know?

Jim Spiegel [00:37:49]:

The expansion of playoffs in all the major sports annoys me because it makes the regular season far less meaningful. Now the NFL, you know, since they're 17, soon to be 18 regular season games, maybe it's a little different. But in baseball, you got a 62 games. Mhmm. And you can finish with the best record over those, what, five, six months. Yeah. And now you're still just one of six teams in in your league. Yes.

Jim Spiegel [00:38:15]:

And it just seems unfair. I'd I or lack it's unjust because it's lack of a proper proportional reward for that achievement.

Ted Kluck [00:38:23]:

That's correct. It's like we've we've had a 62 games to figure this out. Did that not, like, you know, stand for anything, you know.

Jim Spiegel [00:38:30]:

I would be of the old school and this would make far less money for the league. This is why we know it'll never happen where, you know, you'd play all the games and then who has the best record in the American League? They play the team with the best record in the National League. I love it. And that's that. I love it.

Ted Kluck [00:38:44]:

No. That's good. And I think I I was kicking the tires on this theory with a friend not too long ago. Tell me what you think about this. I think and we sound like old men here, and I'll preface with that. But growing up in the eighties and nineties, the best thing about football then and to a certain degree even the NBA then because of how TV worked and stuff, was the scarcity. Right? Like, I knew that I was gonna be with Walter Payton on Sunday, and I would have to wait seven days to be with him again. And and really, like, I would have to wait if I watch Monday Night Football, I'm still waiting six days to be with the NFL again.

Ted Kluck [00:39:24]:

But now via the Thursday night games and the blah blah and social media and all this, like, extreme exposure to it. We've lost scarcity. And I think it's become gradations less magical as a result.

Jim Spiegel [00:39:39]:

Yeah. No. I I agree with that. It's as much as I consume it. And I'm at the Thursday night game to Saturday games is I'm

Ted Kluck [00:39:46]:

in on that

Jim Spiegel [00:39:47]:

too. Sunday afternoon, Sunday evening.

Ted Kluck [00:39:49]:

Tuesday, Mac tion. I'm watching Central Michigan play ball state in front of, like, 15 people on a November evening. You know? It's like, this is sick. Why am I watching this?

Jim Spiegel [00:39:59]:

Well, they do it because they know it'll be consumed.

Ted Kluck [00:40:02]:

That's it. Well and and even that is an interesting commentary. Right? So, like, a Tuesday night Central Michigan Ball State game will still pull a higher rating than, like, the, I don't know, game two of some early playoff NBA series, and that's kind of a fascinating thing. You know?

Jim Spiegel [00:40:21]:

So who are some of your favorite sports personalities Yeah. And why?

Ted Kluck [00:40:26]:

Mike Tyson. You know, we we mentioned that one. You know, growing up, Walter Payton was my hero because of the way he played and because my dad liked him. You know, there's there's always that interesting, like, your dad kind of curates the the museum and then and then gives it to you and says, this is somebody who's courageous and never comes off the field and always plays hard and you know? So I love Peyton for that. In fact, I read do you ever read Jeff Pearlman's, like, presidential length biography of Peyton? I read through it probably a decade ago, and I wept because it essentially pulled back the curtain on kind of what a broken person he was off the field. And, you know, it was kind of this experience of having my my hero brought brought down to Earth for me.

Jim Spiegel [00:41:12]:

What was the deal? I I don't know much about his

Ted Kluck [00:41:14]:

Due drugs, philandering of all kinds. You know, he's just a bad husband. He was presented as this kind of joyful, angelic figure, you know, sweetness. You know, the the reality was something different.

Jim Spiegel [00:41:27]:

A philanthropic guy.

Ted Kluck [00:41:29]:

Yeah. Philanthropic guy. But, you know, like all of us, he had us in nature. And, you know, at times, it it won. And, yes. That was a sad read. Brian Bosworth. I love Brian Bosworth when I was an adolescent, you know, with, like, the the hairstyle, and he played my to look like a superhero.

Ted Kluck [00:41:50]:

Yeah. He did. And he was he was like a cool white guy, which we didn't have many of back then. I've never gotten to interview him. I would love to. Did you watch his 30 for 30? You should watch it. It's one of the most redemptive Christian things I've seen in a long time. So the setup of his 30 for 30 was this came out five, six years ago, and he had a teenage son.

Ted Kluck [00:42:09]:

And he drove his teenage son to, like, one of those storage garages that you can rent. And he was just picking through all of his memorabilia, like, weeping for the the sin that he committed back then. And he was like, I was arrogant. I was a jerk to people. I was horrible to my teammates sometimes. And he's he's pleading with his son, don't be like me, and dealing with some of his own dad stuff via the little league kinda tendencies of his own dad, and it was absolutely fascinating. So I I love Brian Bosworth. If he's listening, I'd love to do a I'd love to do a book with the boss.

Ted Kluck [00:42:45]:

Let's see. Who else? Our old New Orleans Saints guy, Ricky Williams. I enjoyed the Ricky Williams experience. I thought he was very thoughtful in a Tyson esque sort of way. Uh-huh. Has now himself become kind of an avatar for the weed industry. I love Jordan. I got a chance to meet Jordan when I was writing for ESPN, like, year one of my career, and Jordan was in year the end of his playing career.

Ted Kluck [00:43:09]:

I got With

Jim Spiegel [00:43:09]:

the Wizards at

Ted Kluck [00:43:10]:

that point? Wizards. Yeah. And they were playing a meaningless game in Detroit against the Pistons, and, all his teammates were, like, listening to music, you know, goofing around before the game, and he was watching film, you know, in his $5,000 suit. He was gracious to me. I'm sure he could tell I was super nervous, but that was a cool

Jim Spiegel [00:43:28]:

in the presence of basketball royalty.

Ted Kluck [00:43:30]:

Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I had this guy's poster on the wall when I was a kid. Do you know? I was really fascinated. You'll you'll appreciate this one as a a Michigan State grad yourself. Tony Mandarich. Do you remember Tony Mandarich?

Jim Spiegel [00:43:42]:

Oh, yeah.

Ted Kluck [00:43:43]:

I got to interview him for a book chapter once, and boy, was he an interesting guy. Another one of these guys that I had on my wall as a kid is, like, I want my body to look like that. You know? I wanna be that strong and that intimidating at some point in my life.

Jim Spiegel [00:43:55]:

If he only had the work ethic to go with it.

Ted Kluck [00:43:58]:

Well, what's interesting about Mandarich is that so he gets drafted, I think, number two overall that year. It was 1989. Goes to Green Bay.

Jim Spiegel [00:44:06]:

Who drafted? Yeah. Green Bay.

Ted Kluck [00:44:07]:

Green Bay. And he was a famous washout, a bust. And to this day, if you watch those, like, top 10 videos about the greatest draft busts, he's on those lists. And it was because he was, like, he had an addicting addiction to painkillers. He was taking, like, I don't know, 50 painkillers a day just to feel normal. And as any addict would tell you, that was that became, like, the chief end of his life. You know? And so he washes out with Green Bay. He's out of the league for, like, five years.

Ted Kluck [00:44:37]:

And what a lot of people don't know is that he had a third act of his career with the Colts where they brought him in as a kinda journeyman

Jim Spiegel [00:44:45]:

I remember that.

Ted Kluck [00:44:46]:

Offensive lineman, and he had three or four productive years with the Colts, which was awesome. And to me, kind of a great redemptive end cap to that story. He's now like a photographer in Arizona, so he's an artistic guy himself. But Wow. Really fascinating character. Man, I could go on and on. There are so many.

Jim Spiegel [00:45:04]:

What do you think about Aaron Rodgers?

Ted Kluck [00:45:05]:

What a great question. He's another guy I'd love to just do a book with or have a conversation with. I think he man, and I I hate to even speculate on this. Right? Because I don't know the guy, and I've I've spent zero minutes with him. But he seems to have traveled this kind of emergent church path of, like, you know, grew up conservative in a church context that you and I would call normal or close to normal. And then he's playing in Green Bay. He has this encounter with Rob Bell who kind of deconstructs him, and he's kind of remained in this sort of hippie dippy deconstructed always seeking, never finding kinda space. Did you watch the Netflix docs on him?

Jim Spiegel [00:45:46]:

I did. Fascinating.

Ted Kluck [00:45:47]:

Yeah. I thought it was fascinating where, you know, these Ayahuasca retreats with rich people essentially became his church. There was a liturgy to it where you, I don't know, fly to Honduras or wherever and you, you know, get high and hungover on this plant medicine. You literally vomit. Right? The point of it is to vomit and then sort of have realizations about yourself. And it's all the these rich people, you know, vomiting, and they're singing songs. So there's that's part of the liturgy and Meditation. Meditation.

Ted Kluck [00:46:21]:

And it occurred to me, man, like, what he's looking for is what I have in my local church. And what I have is beautiful. I I have people who I'm, you know, in now a decade long friendship with that involves, like, singing and praise and prayer and meditation over things that we believe to be true, and there's richness and depth there. And I think Rogers is just searching for it. I find him to be very entertaining. You know? He's kind of a a loose cannon on the McAfee show and just a really interesting Yeah. He's been willing to to zag culturally on some things in ways that I've liked. So I don't know, man.

Ted Kluck [00:47:01]:

I'm I'm into it. Just as a as a cultural item, he's pretty fascinating.

Jim Spiegel [00:47:06]:

He's an original thinker. Bright guy. I think he's still working on his categories. Yeah. He's looking for something that will bring a kind of, ultimate coherency

Ted Kluck [00:47:19]:

Uh-huh.

Jim Spiegel [00:47:21]:

To his perspective. I think he's looking what he's looking for is a is a biblical worldview.

Ted Kluck [00:47:26]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:47:27]:

I mean, we all want things to make sense. He's in search of that

Ted Kluck [00:47:31]:

Mhmm.

Jim Spiegel [00:47:31]:

In an especially public way, which which is always fascinating

Ted Kluck [00:47:35]:

Gosh. Yes.

Jim Spiegel [00:47:36]:

To watch. Would you say you have a formal theology of sports? And if so, how would you set

Ted Kluck [00:47:43]:

it up? I think as I've gotten older and this has played out in all kinds of different ways. But my formal kinda working theology of sports is question one of the Westminster Shorter Catechism, which is what is glorifying God and enjoying him forever look like in the context of sport? So whether I'm going out to coach or going out to play, I now do so prayerfully, more prayerfully than I certainly I did when you knew me when I was young. And I do so kinda with that idea in the back of my mind of what is glorifying God and enjoying him look like in this context. So the enjoyment comes out in all the little aesthetic things and the way the grass feels on my legs when I stretch and the way it feels to put the uniform on and tape up and the way my son looks when I see him across the huddle. That's that's just the Lord giving me, like, a hundred cc's of enjoyment, like, stat. You know? And I'm, like, immediately thankful for it. And I think the glorifying God piece hopefully comes to bear on how I coach the kids that I coach and how I relate to them and seeking to love them well and teach them a skill, but giving them really some of the experiences I didn't have as a young player where I was loved by someone. You know? And and a lot of my guys at Lane, especially, they've never been loved well by an older man.

Ted Kluck [00:49:11]:

They've never been cared for in a non on the field sort of way. And so I really hope that honors the Lord, you know, and I I want it to. So that that would be probably a quick flyover of my theology of sport. But I wanna ask you the same question. What about you?

Jim Spiegel [00:49:28]:

Yeah. So I would connect it to what I said earlier about what it is that kinda draws us to sport as fans, as observers.

Ted Kluck [00:49:37]:

Mhmm.

Jim Spiegel [00:49:39]:

And that is the beauty that it that it offers Mhmm. In creating a sport, in coaching, in participating in the sport. I think all of it, you know, whether you're Abner Doubleday, Babe Ruth, or you and I watching

Ted Kluck [00:49:56]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:49:57]:

The the Tigers say, we're all compelled by beauty somehow. Mhmm. And all of the the creation that we do, I do a lot of woodworking and home renovation and I see my work doing that as not really in a different category ultimately than my writing. Yeah.

Ted Kluck [00:50:19]:

When I'm

Jim Spiegel [00:50:19]:

Yeah. I'm creating a certain order out of chaos Mhmm. And hopefully something beautiful. And that's what was achieved when baseball was created

Ted Kluck [00:50:28]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:50:29]:

And in every game that's played. So that all originates in the creativity and beauty of God, of course. You know, you think about Jonathan Edwards' understanding of, you know, the perfection and infinitude of God. Everything in the cosmos is an emanation from, you know, the the being of God. And because it comes all comes from God, there's beauty Mhmm. And goodness and truth everywhere. So I I see it as part of that. It's just that what's unique about sports is that they're recreational and that theatrical.

Jim Spiegel [00:51:02]:

So not like any art form, like any fine art form Mhmm. They're not necessary for human survival, but they are necessary for, I guess, maximum human flourishing. Some recreational form or another. It doesn't have to be football or baseball or soccer or whatever, but to have kind of formal kinds of play, I think that is really a vital part of human flourishing.

Ted Kluck [00:51:29]:

Man, I I couldn't agree more. And I think of some of the most joyful play that I've had dating back to, like, early childhood. Right? And and you asked who who are some of the compelling sports figures. I forgot a couple. One was in early childhood, Pete Rose. I love Pete Rose. So I was in East Central Indiana, kind of within striking distance of Cincinnati. I got to see him play.

Ted Kluck [00:51:51]:

He had the same, like, stupid, derpy, like, bull haircut that, like, me and

Jim Spiegel [00:51:55]:

all Howard.

Ted Kluck [00:51:56]:

Yeah. Me and all my friends had that haircut in, like, 1983. You know? And so, you know, we're go we're going out in the backyard and, like, painting lines on the the vacant lot pretending to be Pete Rose doing peedies. You know? You wanna get that slip and slide out and do a do a peedie into it. And,

Jim Spiegel [00:52:13]:

He was the only one that was doing that for a while. That's kind of his first slide.

Ted Kluck [00:52:16]:

But it was just like a formative part of who I am now. You know? And it's not a big part, but it's, like, in there somewhere. And even just, like, the way you wear the uniform and the way you play and, like, it occurred to me as you were talking with every sports figure that I've resonated with, there's always been an aesthetic element. Like, I remember late nineties, early '2 thousands, Ohio State had a linebacker named Andy Katzenmoyer, the big cat. And he played my position. He was about my size. I mean, way better than me, bigger, faster, stronger, the whole thing. But I love the way he looked, like, the stance, the the way he wore the helmet, the visor, the neck roll.

Ted Kluck [00:52:54]:

It was all kinda aspirational and pleasing to me. You know? And so you go to it to be pleased in some way, I think. Which is why, at Jim Spiegel, you and I need to write the multi volume theology of sport. I think There you go. I need you to help me do it because I can't do it on my own, but I would very much enjoy that.

Jim Spiegel [00:53:15]:

I would love that. Yeah. Well, let this be a a kind of public gentleman's agreement to pursue that.

Ted Kluck [00:53:21]:

Dude, I would

Jim Spiegel [00:53:21]:

love it. Together.

Ted Kluck [00:53:22]:

Let it be a shot across the bow to our our agent who we share. Yeah. I don't know. You know what? I don't know where you are with your writing career, and this may be too old man ish. You may have to cut this out. But I'm, like, way less ambitious than I used to be. Like, fewer things get me excited. And I think, like, when I was, like, 33, let's say, just the idea of doing another book was really exciting, and it really didn't even matter what it was about.

Ted Kluck [00:53:47]:

But now it takes a lot more to, like, get me off the couch as a writer, but but that would do it. That would get me off the couch.

Jim Spiegel [00:53:53]:

My current project, I have a contract with Cascade

Ted Kluck [00:53:57]:

Mhmm.

Jim Spiegel [00:53:58]:

Books, and my editor there, you'd love him. Robin Perry, great guy. So I have a contract, for a book that's entitled A Thing of Beauty. Mhmm. And the subtitle is how everything is art and art is everything.

Ted Kluck [00:54:12]:

Come on. I'm in.

Jim Spiegel [00:54:14]:

So and I do have a I will have a chapter dealing with sports as well as with science and history and so on. It's just taking seriously and applying this idea that God is the cosmic artist. Yeah. It really, it it it really has implications for every aspect of human life, whatever we're doing. History is a drama. Yes. Science, you're studying the the tangible, you know, physical artwork of God and and so on. So that's that's the next project and that that directly relates to what we're talking about.

Ted Kluck [00:54:45]:

Absolutely. Dude, that's gonna rip. Congratulations. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:54:47]:

I hope so. Maybe I can get you to to do a back cover blurb.

Ted Kluck [00:54:51]:

Yeah. Yeah. I'm in. Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:54:52]:

So the question I always conclude with, you've already addressed to some degree and that is a question about the meaning of life. Right? The the ultimate philosophical question.

Ted Kluck [00:55:00]:

Yeah.

Jim Spiegel [00:55:01]:

But just to finish up here since you've already talked about that in relation to, you know, sports and and your interest in involvement in sports is talk about how your work as a writer is a manifestation of your view of the meaning

Ted Kluck [00:55:16]:

of that. Again, like my work as an athlete, I think this has grown over the years as I've grown in my own sanctification. Right? I mean, I think by and large, early in my writing career even, it was a it was an exercise in self glorification. You know? I'm proud. I'm chasing something that I later learned wouldn't satisfy. You know? And and whatever it is for you, I I thought that, like, signing an autograph in a book would be fulfilling. You know? It'd prove that I was on the planet, that I existed, that somebody cared about me. You know? That I was I was okay.

Ted Kluck [00:55:53]:

I had what it took or whatever. And then you have that experience or, you know, you appear on a TV show to talk about your book or whatever, and you realize none of these things are satisfying. And so one of the interesting things about the academy, and I'm sure you had to do this in your career to get tenure, to get promotion, or to win faculty of the year, whatever, you have to essentially build this dossier, which is like this 40 or 50 page document telling them all the stuff they already know about what you do. And I think it's like academic hazing. You know? But, in one of those things, I had to write, like, my philosophy of teaching or whatever. And I I think it's and I use question one of the Westminster Shorter Catechism. Right? And I wanna glorify God. I really do want to enjoy him.

Ted Kluck [00:56:41]:

So what does that look like laid over my my work as a parent, my work as a husband, my work as a teacher? And, hopefully, on my good days, that idea is driving everything that I do. So now my writing, hopefully, at age 49, has a richer fragrance fragrance of the Lord in it than it did at 29. You know? When at 29, I was really just trying to show off, and I was doing, like, isn't it interesting what I find interesting? Hopefully, now my writing is is more seasoned with with the Lord and maturity and growth and all the scars and the pain that come with it, you know, and all the shots you take along the way and all the moments you have to tell your wife you're sorry and and, you know, all those rich things that make a life. You know?

Jim Spiegel [00:57:31]:

Yep. Wow. That's good stuff. Good stuff. Well, this has been great. Love it. And I'd like to do this again, Mary, periodically.

Ted Kluck [00:57:38]:

I would too, man. Yeah. I've always enjoyed talking with you.

Jim Spiegel [00:57:42]:

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