Tom Edwards [00:00:00]:

It left me broken because I would have inmates stabbed, inmates who should get out of prison be told to roll over for seven years, and those who shouldn't get out of prison be released. And so the anxiety was killing me, but I just knew that God would deliver me from prison. And so the morning I pulled up to Joe's house, I heard a voice say inside, this man is going to offer you a job today. And it was, I was like. And I laughed out loud. Like Sarah, I said out loud, I don't know if this guy has a job, but his home was humongous, the biggest private home I had ever been in. So I knew that he had connections and money and resources. So he invited me into his home and at lunch he began to ask me questions about my pathway.

Tom Edwards [00:00:45]:

And I said, I work in prison, but I know that God is calling me to be a church consultant. I'm going to seminary and I can't pursue a business degree. So I know I have to learn how to corporate systems work without doing it. And so he kind of got quiet for a few moments.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:02]:

Welcome to the Kalos Center Podcast. Welcome to another episode of the Kalos Center Podcast. Our guest today is Dr. Tom Edwards.

Tom Edwards [00:01:20]:

Tom.

Jim Spiegel [00:01:21]:

Tom earned his bachelor's degree in theology at the International College of Bible theology and his PhD in Christian education and Leadership from the Midwest Theological Seminary. Dr. Edwards has an extensive background in leadership. He has served as training and DEI manager at RR Donnelly & Sons in Willard and Newark, Ohio. As senior consulting associate with Church Growth Resources. He's been president of Kingdom Ministries and Consulting in Columbus, Ohio. He's been director of the Believers Institute at the New Covenant Believers Church in Columbus, pastor of Compass Christian Church in Whitehall, Ohio, and has served as senior Pastor at Equippers City Church in Reynoldsburg, Ohio. And he has served as the director of Restore Whitehall.

Jim Spiegel [00:02:13]:

So I got to know Tom through our mutual involvement with a program called the Minnery Fellowship, which is a continuing education program run by the center for Christian Virtue here in Columbus. I led a group of about 15 Columbus area pastors in a four month discussion of cultural issues. The Minary Fellowship is all about cultural engagement. And that experience, as I'm sure Tom will attest, was very stimulating, encouraging, educational. And Tom was a big part of the success of that cohort. And as he contributed his many insights to those discussions, I knew he'd be a great guest for our podcast. So here we are. Tom Edwards, welcome to the Kalos Center Podcast.

Tom Edwards [00:03:00]:

Thank you, Jim.

Jim Spiegel [00:03:02]:

So tell us about your work at the community Life Center.

Tom Edwards [00:03:05]:

As you said, I am the CEO and one of the founding leaders of the Community Life center here in Columbus. It's actually the successor organization to Restore Whitehall. We are as much a movement as we are an organization. Our mission is to revive the biblical foundations of the church and restore broken communities spiritually, socially and relationally. My job is to create the program, to write the theological rationale for all that we do. So it's whether through family strengthening, church revitalization, or strategic community partnerships, which is a big focus of what we do. Everything we do is centered around Jesus and his mission. So we're not just proclaiming the gospel, we're not just a preaching institution.

Tom Edwards [00:03:53]:

We are living it out through redemptive relationships and practical acts of love and justice. Our current initiative is called the Nehemiah Initiative, designed to revitalize the black church and equip it to restore African American families. There's a big gulf in our community of African American families living beneath their biblical potential, their God given potential. So, and so you can't do that alone. Unfortunately, a lot of our churches aren't prepared or equipped or resourced to do that work. And so our focus has shifted to creating a mechanism and a system that will be beta tested here in central Ohio, but be able to be replicated around the state and around the country and to be done so for free. So it's a big reach, it's a grandiose process. I say it's almost akin to doing the work that Reconstruction didn't do after the Civil War.

Jim Spiegel [00:04:57]:

As the introduction indicated, you've taken a rather, let's say, serpentine path into this current work. Talk about some of the other work you've done and how it led to your current role.

Tom Edwards [00:05:10]:

Wow. Wow. I usually begin with a tragedy. When I was in high school, my best friend committed suicide. That was in 1981. And at that time there wasn't a lot of talk in the school system around suicide, suicidal ideation, how to handle that. And I realized after his death that he was telegraphing his pain to me. And so from there I just began to ask, God, what can I do? The first time that I cried profusely was after that school day when I got home and realized that if I was properly equipped, I could help him.

Tom Edwards [00:05:51]:

That led me to the social service sector at first. So I became a social worker with juvenile offenders. Spent many days doing suicide watch, sometimes arm length for 8 hours, 16 hours a day. That led me to, then moving on to the adult offender system, to the adult Prison system. As a case manager with Mansfield Correctional in Mansfield, Ohio. I was also the security threat director, or the gang training person in the prison. So from just talking to the kids, I learned a lot about street culture around gang culture, and being from a rural Southern environment that had no street gangs, they educated me. And so I had a journal and my co workers would ask me, how did I get this information? And I said, just talking to the kids and interviewing the kids on how to steal a car, how to make crack cocaine, and what was the Alphabet of various gangs from the Vice Lords, the Folk, the Crips, in the Bloods, Aryan Brothers.

Tom Edwards [00:06:49]:

I worked with everybody. Mexican Mafia, and then the local gangs from. From around the various cities in Ohio. That led me to having that platform caused people in the prison system who were Christians to want to push me out to do community ministry. So we. I was recruited because I was young and photogenic, and that hasn't changed. Semi articulate. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Tom Edwards [00:07:12]:

And to be the face of what was called the Mansfield Men's Fellowship. And it was there that a executive from RR Donnelly and Son's company, Joe Lakes, saw me speak on a topic, David and his men in the cave of Adullam. And he had just became a Christian, I found out later, nine months before that. And from there he pursued me, which scared me. He just wanted to find someone that had a strong Jesus background to be his discipler, his mentor. And Now Joe was 20 years older than me. And so he's a white guy. And so even though I work with white guys, very.

Tom Edwards [00:07:52]:

It's just. It's hard sometimes when. When you are in the minority to receive attention from the majority like that. So what's this guy's angle? And so after months of ignoring him, I finally found his card and called him. He invited me to his home for breakfast. And Jim, I'm going to. I have a lot of supernatural experiences, but I remember this one. So I had wanted to leave the prison system, and I was.

Tom Edwards [00:08:15]:

I was such a good prison worker that the inmates wanted to come to my unit to be in my unit. So I had 180 inmates on my caseload. And I'm training the entire staff on gangs and gang culture and how to read gang writing and so forth. But it was very stressful. It left me broken because I would have inmates stabbed. Inmates who should get out of prison be told to roll over for seven years, and those who shouldn't get out of prison be released. And so the anxiety was killing me. But I just knew that God would deliver me from prison.

Tom Edwards [00:08:47]:

And so the morning I pulled up to Joe's house, I heard a voice say inside, this man is going to offer you a job today. And it was. I was like. And I laughed out loud, like Sarah, I said. I said out loud, I don't know if this guy has a job, but his home was humongous, the biggest private home I have had ever been in. So I knew that he had connections and money and resources. So he invited me into his home. We hit it off immediately.

Tom Edwards [00:09:15]:

He cooked breakfast for me. His wife kicked us out. We went to lunch. And at lunch, he began to ask me questions about my pathway. And I said, I work in prison, but I know that God is calling me to be a church consultant. And so I'm going to seminary, and I can't pursue a business degree, so I know I have to learn how corporate systems work without doing it. And so he kind of got quiet for a few moments. Then he said, can I ask you a question? Because I don't want to insult you.

Tom Edwards [00:09:45]:

You said, for the last nine months, there's been a position in hr, in training, in our division of Donnelley and Willard that has been open that we could not fill with anyone. I believe the Lord wants me to offer you a job today.

Jim Spiegel [00:09:59]:

Well, there you go.

Tom Edwards [00:10:00]:

When he said that, that laugh that I laughed in my car, in his driveway came back, and I laughed so hard that I fell over in the diner booth. And he looked over the table and said, what's wrong with you? And I sat up, wiping tears from my eyes, and said, when I drove into your driveway this morning, I heard inside my heart, this man is going to offer you a job today. That changed my life. I was actually paid for a year to just learn to be equipped with Covey, Myers Briggs, damning, all of these things. I didn't even know how to turn on a computer, a real computer. The prison computers were not real computers until I got to Donnelly. But I was such a quick learner. In six months, I grasped everything they were teaching me, and.

Tom Edwards [00:10:42]:

And then I was able to start working. And it was like a kid in a candy store being able to learn to train, to go all over the country, to be being equipped and certified in so many modalities at the same time. I'm going to seminary at night. And so for almost six years, I'm in the corporate world being trained, being perfected, going to seminary, being equipped. And then the next logical step was to leave. And so in 2003, December 12, four days before my birthday, they allowed me to go. They didn't want to let me go because they invested a lot of money in me. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were invested by Don Lee in me.

Tom Edwards [00:11:22]:

But I wanted to take all of that and take it to the church world. The unfortunate thing was the church world was not ready for a corporate trainer. My first day as a church consultant, I made $2,000. For the next four months I made nothing. Because when I tried to sell myself to churches, the response I kept getting was, do you preach? And so especially in the African American church community, transformation happened on Sunday morning doing sermons. So the whole idea around leadership development, human resources, training, all of those things that I had to offer, from S to 7s to Deming to Blanchard, all those tools went over their head. And so one day, with only a few thousand dollars in our nonprofits, now we have Kingdom Ministries and consulting, launched on January 1, 2004. No customers, $3,000 in the bank.

Tom Edwards [00:12:17]:

That's all we have. And so I'm doing an Internet search, how to be a church consultant. Anyone help me, teach me how. And I stumbled upon several things. I stumbled on natural church development. I stumbled upon Rick Warren. But I found church growth resources and a tool called the Ministry Toolbox System. I read it, it was perfect.

Tom Edwards [00:12:39]:

So I called, didn't know I was calling Canada, didn't know it was long distance, didn't know I would have a large phone bill. But I asked could I purchase the system for my consultancy? And the guy said, no, but you can talk to the CEO. And so the CEO called me that afternoon and he said to me, are you serious about help helping churches? And I said yes. He said, I need you to spend a week in Canada with me so I can vet you before I. So I can see if you have the stuff to be trained to, to do God's work in churches. And that changed everything. So that's from there, our consultancy firm took off.

Jim Spiegel [00:13:15]:

What was that week like?

Tom Edwards [00:13:17]:

It was an amazing week. It was just Bruce Scott and myself and the mornings with me basically training me on his modality. And I recognized when I saw it, the best of corporate strategic planning tools. And I asked him at lunch break that first day, what school, what business school did you go to to learn this? And he said, my friend Gary and I spent the last 30 years just praying. And God revealed this to me. And so I've never had a business class. I've never. But it was so mind blowing.

Tom Edwards [00:13:49]:

It was what I was taught in the corporate world, but through the lens of church. And so the key behind that system was the prime indicators. He said every, every ministry is based upon eight prime things. The church has four biblical mandates that are clearly expressed and four other mandates that aren't clearly expressed. So the four clear New Testament mandates are churches are called to worship, fellowship, discipleship and evangelism. And then the church is also called to equip people for ministry. They're volunteers, they're real church staff. Every believer to have a cultural dynamic, to understand those in the church and those out in the community.

Tom Edwards [00:14:32]:

The church needs to have an administrative system to properly steward God's resources. And the church needs to have a mechanism to cast vision and to keep vision before people. So those eight areas, and then Bruce and Gary created 400 programs and activities that aligned with all of those categories in a strategic planning system. And he was blessed with a son who designed software to build it into a software tool. And so it was mind blowing. It was as if God put church in a box. And then once I got that, Bruce taught me how to engage denominations and, and churches throughout the Midwest on how to incorporate the system. And so once I became completely trained, he and I would barnstorm the Midwest Ohio.

Tom Edwards [00:15:22]:

And he did this with a year with me. So I was actually paid to learn. And we would spend a week Training churches and denominations 40 on the basics of the system. And from that, churches would had the option of hiring me as a consultant and my team to walk with them for a year or so to completely implement the system. And that was fun.

Jim Spiegel [00:15:44]:

So I'm interested in those four clear mandates, which I don't think many people would argue with. As you consider the contemporary American church, which of those four would you say? The. Let's just talk about the evangelical American Church. Which of those four areas would you say there's the greatest need or where or where the church is weakest?

Tom Edwards [00:16:07]:

The obvious answer that many people think would be evangelism, but the real answer is discipleship. I think everything flows around discipleship. I think worship, fellowship and evangelism all stem from the mandate of discipleship. And I think we have lost that. And I don't want to put a lot of blame on the American church per se, because I think the enemy, our common enemy, Satan, has done a really good job historically of nullifying or causing us not to focus on discipleship. That's why we have the Reformation, that's why we have the Wesley brothers. That's why we have all these movements throughout history to take us back to foundational principles, to make Disciples of all nations. And now it's basically cultural Christianity.

Tom Edwards [00:17:02]:

I show up on Sunday morning, I do Jesus for an hour, then I get back to my real life and you cannot be a disciple, you cannot become an apprentice of Jesus, as Dallas Willett would say within the context of a 60 minute church service or a 15 minute sermon or sermonette in some cases.

Jim Spiegel [00:17:22]:

I think that's exactly right. And tell me if you would resonate with this For a long time, probably most of my Christian life I've been critical of sort of the standard take on the Great Commission in Matthew 28, 1920, which is to understand that primarily in evangelistic terms. Now when you look at what Jesus is really saying there, it really is about discipleship. He says to make disciples. And that isn't just front end. Okay, we make a convert. It's about a deep training and spiritual formation. And it's a much more full orbed view.

Jim Spiegel [00:18:05]:

And it's very education oriented as opposed to just making converts. Do you think that's right? Do you think the misunderstanding of the Great Commission is kind of the culprit in terms of the problems we're talking about in the evangelical church?

Tom Edwards [00:18:20]:

Absolutely. I love Billy Graham, I love Billy Sunday. I love what came out of those great movements of gospel expansion, those great awakenings that have happened in our nation. Billy Brown would tell you if he was still here today, that his call to Christ was not the end of the process. I think many churches have, have seen discipleship through the lens of I have Jesus in my heart, but is Jesus actually, in your behavior, have you actually been transformed into Christ likeness? And so I can't remember which translation of the Bible. It may be the voice translation of one of the newer paraphrase translations that talks, that puts the words of formation in Matthew 28 form them in my practices, that the teaching, that whole process of teaching them to obey everything that I've taught you doesn't happen only on Sunday morning. It's a lifelong process. And so I gave my life in the Baptist context to Christ when I was seven years old.

Tom Edwards [00:19:31]:

But I've been formed in Christ for the last 53 years. And it wasn't until I intentionally at age 27, so 20 years I lived as I would say a baby Christian. But I spent three years after a personal crisis. I just wanted to know him. I wanted to know him. The scripture that I kind of live by is Philippians 3, 10, 13. It's kind of like my foundation scripture. The Amplified Classic says in parentheses, for my determined purpose is that I may know him, that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with him, perceiving and recognizing and, and understanding the wonders of his person more strongly and more clearly, that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from his resurrection.

Tom Edwards [00:20:23]:

Another convicting verse is, is for me was Matthew, chapter 7, verses 20, 23. Many will say to me on that day, lord, Lord. And. And the end result was, I never knew you. There are a lot of believers who don't know Jesus or church attenders in.

Jim Spiegel [00:20:39]:

That case, the people he's talking to actually performed miracles, right? They're casting demons out. And so we get so impressed by the spiritual gifts, as important as they are, and don't put enough emphasis on simple. It's not simple, but it's very basic obedience and the fruit of the Spirit, when that's more essential than even the performance of these miracles when it comes to the implications for whether or not you are truly in Christ.

Tom Edwards [00:21:09]:

So, so the thing, the key thing About Matthew, chapter seven 21 to 23, they said they cast out demons. They said they prophesied, they said they did many wonderful works. It's kind of like the seven sons of Skiva who went to cast out demons. And, and the demon said, before he beat the clothes off of them, Jesus I know, Paul I know about, but who are you? He knew Jesus on the highest plane. He knew Paul. He had no intimate relationship. And so the indicting thing that drove my church consultancy was are we actually helping people to know Jesus? In the Baptist church, we are quick to quote Hosea 4. 6, a clause, my people perish for lack of knowledge.

Tom Edwards [00:21:58]:

So we use that as a tool to instill Bible study Christian education in small groups. But that's not the context. It's not just about knowledge. The controlling context is they don't really know who I am. They don't have an intimate relationship with me. Isaiah 5:13 says the same thing. My people go into captivity because they have no knowledge. They don't know me.

Tom Edwards [00:22:21]:

And so discipleship in my basic rudimentary southern definition is helping people to really know and to become intimate with Jesus and helping other people then to do the same. So once I get to know him and to really have a relationship with Him, I should be excited with sharing the best thing in my life with someone else who doesn't know him. So I think the biggest crusade that is going to happen in the next five to 10 years is within the confines of church. Let's help people within church. People like John Mark Comer who has taken up the mantle of Dallas Willard to now in the evangelical church to really help people. Whatever you think about John Mark. But I like that there's this emphasis of on missio de missional discipleship and for us to really become the imago day, the image of God in this world. Dr.

Tom Edwards [00:23:15]:

Eugene Peterson and Matthew chapter 5, 13:16 message. Bible says, and I love his language, let me tell you why you are here. That's why he begins verse 13 and he goes on and talk about being salt and light. And the convicting thing for me is am I really salt? Am I really light? Because if God called me here to do Matthew 28:19 20 and this is what the mandate was as we saw it in the Baptist church of my youth. That's the preacher's job. I think part of our assignment is to democratize ministry. Yes, as an equipper of the saints, King James Version, Philippians 4:11, My job is to help them, to equip them, to do the work of the ministry. And I believe the work of the ministry starts at Matthew 28, 1920.

Jim Spiegel [00:24:10]:

Well, everything you're saying is also reinforced by Jesus words that it's in John 9 or 10 where he, he says, those who love me keep my commands. Right? And the one who keeps my commands loves me. That we tend in I guess our hyper romanticized American culture to think of love in purely erotic terms, right. And kind of project that onto a biblical view of the love of God, when actually love of God is, as Jesus says, it's doing what he's told you to do that is a manifestation of your love. Of course the affection is there. But most importantly, are you doing what he tells you to do? Are we living the way of Christ?

Tom Edwards [00:24:51]:

Yes sir, I totally concur.

Jim Spiegel [00:24:52]:

So that is very much as you would know as well as anyone, it's a countercultural message even within the evangelical church. But it's fundamental to the health of the church and to emphasizing or recapturing a proper emphasis on discipleship. Yes, we need to have our doctrine in line, of course, we need to be biblical and orthodox. But now how well are we living that out in our lives in all these different contexts, right, as an employee or as a leader or both, and as a parent, as an athlete, as an investor, whatever, as a carpenter, whatever one's work is, is your life manifesting or displaying the virtues that, that biblically we're commanded to manifest in obeying Christ? So I want to go back to some of the experiences you had early on which must have been just excruciating. You know, the prison ministry and work that you were doing. You lost a good friend early on. We've been doing a book study. It's part of the Calo center on Augustine's Confessions.

Jim Spiegel [00:25:57]:

And when you mentioned that, I couldn't help but think that how Augustine had. He talks about this in the Confessions, how devastating it was when he lost a good friend early on. And that will often prompt the deepest of questions that we have about the meaning of life. And if you're a person of faith, or whatever degree of faith you have, it will challenge that and it will stimulate you. It should stimulate you to look up and say, oh, God, you know, what am I doing? And am I living rightly before you? How should I understand this horrible, tragic event? You know, in light of your providence, I'm sure you asked all those questions and then struggling with what could I have done? That's the most haunting one. When we think maybe we could have made a difference. I've lost many friends to, you know, early deaths and some of them to suicide. And those are the hardest to deal with.

Jim Spiegel [00:26:57]:

So how has. This is the question I'm driving towards. How has the experience of suffering informed your faith and what is. And you can ultimately move towards your own theology of suffering if you want.

Tom Edwards [00:27:12]:

Okay. Well, what I left out of my salvation story was my mother's death when I was five years old. When I was a kid, I don't remember a time when Christ was not a part of my life. So my mom. My mom's father was an AME church pastor or elder, African Methodist Episcopal Church. My father's father was a Baptist pastor. So on first and third Sunday, I went to church with my mom. She took my brother and I and the kids to Methodist church.

Tom Edwards [00:27:46]:

And I hated it. It was so stiff and rigid. The pastor stood off to the left, and he would give these monotone sermons that were so dry, didn't move. We sung out of hymnals. And on second and fourth Sunday, my father sent us to his church, the Baptist church, and it was fun. The pastor, Reverend Laskins, I remember his name. I don't remember my mother's pastor's name, but he was like a grandfather figure. My grandfathers had.

Tom Edwards [00:28:14]:

Had passed. My grandparents had passed at that time. And he preached the gospel with energy and strength. And I love that. I love my Sunday school teacher who taught us the full counsel of God. I didn't know that she was a teenager at the time, this young lady. When my mom died, I felt an attraction to church. There's a hole in my heart and no one could fill that hole.

Tom Edwards [00:28:40]:

So I started going to church as a five year old. Many times by myself, I wanted to go to church. And sitting there hearing about this new life and hearing about those who died in Christ will be with him someday, that intrigued me. And for two years I sat there listening to messages as a five then sixth and seven year old, feeling this urge in the Baptist vernacular to get up and experience the right hand of fellowship with the pastor. And I resisted that for almost a year before, before I finally stood up. And when I stood up the pastor, because no one stood up for months because everyone in the church is a believer supposedly he started crying and the church turned around because I sat on the back row. And when I walked up, he enveloped me in his robe and. And he said, one day this young man will be a preacher and lead many souls to Christ.

Tom Edwards [00:29:34]:

Which totally scared me. I experienced so much death and separation in my life. My father passed away my freshman year of college. We had a love hate relationship. He came to Christ late in life and I wanted to graduate and show him the kind of man that I would become. And he had the audacity to die middle of my freshman year. My high school sweetheart was raped soon after high school and began to have mental issues. In my early 20s I began to ask God, why are you exposing me to all of this grief, pain and suffering? I think if my best friend had not committed suicide, I may have committed suicide.

Tom Edwards [00:30:15]:

His death was the most painful thing that I've ever experienced. More than my mom's death, more than my father's death. I could explained their deaths. My mom's death was because she had a early 20s accident that she was struck by a hatchet and she had a scar on her heart. And in her early 40s she died of a heart attack. My father, who pretended to be younger than he was, died at 72. And the doctor said there were no real, it had to be natural causes. But there was no reason why.

Tom Edwards [00:30:41]:

But he worked hard most of his life. When Dwayne committed suicide, he was my age. And so that sense of suffering and pain, I realized that it was a second Corinthians epiphany for me that the God of all comfort who came to comfort me so that I could comfort others in the same way that he comforted me. And so I think there's something redemptive in suffering. We are commanded to die daily. But there are parts of my life in my later 20s, I did some really stupid stuff. So I've turned my back on God for three years to live like a heathen. And every time I got close to being completely hedonistic, I almost died.

Tom Edwards [00:31:23]:

I almost killed someone to. It culminated to someone almost killed me for doing something really stupid. And I realized for the next three years I had to go into a hibernation period, just me and God. I would go to work and come home, stop dating, stop pursuing girls, start pursuing Jesus. And that changed my life. And so now I see it as a great honor to help individuals and families deal with death and transitions. Because we don't view death in transitions through the lens of God. We mourn like those in the world mourn, as if there's no hope.

Tom Edwards [00:32:00]:

And so I went from being completely afraid of death, not wondering why God hated me, let this all happen to me, to me looking forward to my own personal reunion with God, either personally or with the group of believers. I think that you really cannot, like Joseph, like David, like Abraham, every biblical character, Israel, you have to go through this death period, this wilderness period, this, this period where you go from, from the, the favorite son with a coat of men in colors, to being in a pit, to being in Potiphar's house, to being in prison. He would have never become the guy that he dreamt about if he did not suffer what he suffered. So it's. So suffering is mandatory and most of us try to get out of it. And when we try to avoid suffering, we never reach our God given potential. That's my theology of suffering.

Jim Spiegel [00:32:49]:

Yeah, I think you've really nailed it. And it's certainly faithful to the entire biblical witness from Old Testament through and especially the life of Christ. You know, he was the God man who was man of sorrows, Satan. The book of Ecclesiastes says the more knowledge, the more grief, the more wisdom, the more sorrow. And of course, the way of Christ is the way of wisdom. So when you choose to follow Christ, you are choosing a way of sorrow. Yes, but it's also a way of joy, isn't it? Yes, that is a huge part. It's such an indicator that it really is from God.

Jim Spiegel [00:33:32]:

It's paradoxical. It's that peace that passes understanding in the midst of our suffering and sorrow, we even have a greater joy. It makes no sense from a human rational standpoint, but every Christian, every really devout Christian who's been on the Pilgrim's Way for any significant period of time will testify to that. Right. And so it's, it's essential. But again, just how countercultural that is.

Tom Edwards [00:34:01]:

Yes, yes, yes. My last big bout of suffering because I had gotten to the point where I thought I was immune to tears. And so between when Covid started to come in, I lost my closest sister and her husband. I lost one of my nephews, two of my best friends, some to Covid, some to other issues. And I had to do all of their services, their funeral services. And then my mother in law and father in law passed away within a month of each other. And my mother in law and father in law were with me longer than my natural parents. They treated me like I was their fourth son.

Tom Edwards [00:34:39]:

They have one daughter, my wife Pat, and I got to enjoy for the first time. So God gave me parents in my adulthood and they spoiled me to death. I love them so much. And I'm pastoring a church. I'm the senior pastor of Equippers. And then after I come back from sabbatical from burying them, the question came up, are you really doing the duties that you were hired to do as pastor? And that was used as a catalyst to encourage me to resign. And I pretended, Jim, that it did not faze me. I.

Tom Edwards [00:35:13]:

I pretended as if it didn't have an emotional impact. I'm a big Star Trek fan. I like the, the, the Chris Pine Zachary Kino version of Star Trek when he, when Spock loses his. His mother and, and Kirk uses that incident to show that he was emotionally compromised. I didn't know that I was emotionally compromised. And it took pastors and counselors and friends to help me to realize that that suffering was so necessary to birth in me what I'm doing today. If I had stayed at that ministry, I would not have doubled down on knowing Christ, understanding Matthew 16:18 totality to call the create Christian Community. I would have stopped short.

Tom Edwards [00:35:57]:

But from that suffering and that morning and releasing all of that, I have found Christ in a deeper way. And so I hate to admit this, but I've been tearful recently. I can't watch the Chosen. I can't watch Armageddon or any heroic movie without just boohoo crying. I'm just. I feel like a big crybaby because I am so into. I can just watch fish fictional suffering and. And I'm torn up or someone just doing it, just giving themselves sacrificially.

Tom Edwards [00:36:28]:

It touches me now. And so I don't want to go back. I went from a guy that would not cry and could not cry to a guy now that's trying to keep tissues in My pocket so no one would see those tears flowing from me.

Jim Spiegel [00:36:41]:

Well, you say crybaby, when actually it's an indicator of just how much you've grown in the virtue of compassion and this empathy, or what one philosopher called a kind of fellow feeling, that if we develop properly in terms of growing in moral maturity and Christian sanctification, that should increase, that should improve. I haven't had the same experience. I'm much more easily moved to tears now considering. Yeah. Even fictional stories because of my own experiences that, like you, they tenderize you and give you more of a compassion for people. That's beautiful. So how does your theology of suffering inform your leadership style and your philosophy of leadership in terms of all the consulting you do?

Tom Edwards [00:37:31]:

Wow. Wow. It just creates a heart for serving others. My leadership style is service. I met a pastor in my consultancy who made the statement that he knows how to do every job in his church so he can work any system. He said he doesn't do the job, but he. But he spends a. He spends at least a week like Undercover Boss in his church working with everybody in their system so he would understand how.

Tom Edwards [00:37:59]:

How they're operating so he can empathize with him. And I said, that is such a cool mindset to be able to. To know what everyone that you are leading is going through. And so I model my leadership philosophy after Christ. He did not come to be served, but to serve, but also to give his life as a ransom. And so I take that to heart. I give my life to those that I serve, and if they have the right heart, they won't take advantage of it. When I find someone taking advantage of my servanthood to them, then I know they don't really have the heart of Christ.

Tom Edwards [00:38:37]:

And so when leaders that I'm serving begin to tell me, we can't let you do this. That's not your role. We're going to do this. I want them to see within me while I'm cultivating with all these tools. So I will assess their apest. I will assess their Myers Briggs. I would assess their Enneagram. I'll do all these different assessment tools with them for them to understand who they are and also for me to understand how God made them in different facets, training and equipping them.

Tom Edwards [00:39:04]:

But the big test, I want them to see me serve and to do it in a selfless way. And so I don't know if you are a watcher. The Chosen. It's a fictionalized version of the life of Christ. But in the episode five or six, when Jesus washes feet, the character who plays Peter, the guy plays Peter, decides, well, I'm going to emulate Jesus. He's not going to wash my feet. So he grabs a basin and this is not biblical, and a towel. And basically Jesus tells him, just sit down.

Tom Edwards [00:39:31]:

You're doing too much, Peter, unless I watch you and you get the rest of the biblical narrative. I want people to be convicted by what I do for Christ to follow suit. In the black church, we are very known as saying, our lives are the 67th book of the Bible. And so people see the gospel in how we behave and how we act. Because in our culture, especially in the black church culture, there's a hierarchy. Many times when you become clergy and you begin to be treated like royalty sometimes, and that can come to your head. And so even though I let people call me pastor or whatever theological title I have, adopt the Tom, I'm quick to say my name is actually Tom. I serve the body of Christ as a pastor, as a leader, I have an apostolic mandate.

Tom Edwards [00:40:23]:

But that's not who I am. I like what Paul says. Bondservant Doulos. I said, I tell all believers, you are either one or two types of Christians. You're either Doulos or Diaconos.

Jim Spiegel [00:40:39]:

So.

Tom Edwards [00:40:40]:

So you are the servant of servants, or you are a servant. Either way, you are a servant. Hope that answers your question.

Jim Spiegel [00:40:47]:

Wow, that's great. Yeah. As you know, there's probably a book a week published about leadership, both in mainstream presses and in the Christian publishing industry. But not a lot of those emphasize or put an accent on servanthood. Right. And humility.

Tom Edwards [00:41:07]:

Yes.

Jim Spiegel [00:41:08]:

That will to serve and to become less so the other that you're serving can become more again. It's countercultural, and it goes against our nature. Even if we are among the redeemed, there's still the natural man there that doesn't want that, you know? So that's great that you emphasize that, that you work out of that perspective, because you, as you say, you really are just modeling the way of Christ and how he led, which was through his service. And as the kenosis passage puts it in Philippians 2, that he did not. He was divine. He did not consider his equality with God as something to be grasped, but he made himself a servant, emptied himself, and that should be our model. I like to conclude each of our episodes, each of our conversations, with that kind of cliche question, at least in the world of philosophy, about the meaning of life. It's.

Jim Spiegel [00:42:03]:

It's cliche for good reason. Because it's the ultimate question and the question that all of us should be asking. And that is, what is the meaning of life? How would you conceive the ultimate meaning of life? And how is your work a manifestation of your view of the purpose of life?

Tom Edwards [00:42:21]:

You, being the expert in philosophy, probably know who actually said this originally. But I. I believe the ultimate purpose of life is to know God and to be known by Him. And that's why I quoted Philippians 3:13 earlier to to know him, to glorify him in my behavior, to enjoy him, to actually spend time enjoying Christ and to reflect his nature in all that I do. Whether I am discipling and cultivating leaders, struggling, strengthening families, or either cultivating the missional communities that our Home Life center does. I believe that my work is about helping people also reflect that. To know him, to be known by him, to enjoy that God kind of infused life, that abundant life, to enjoy him in every aspect and to love the caller, enjoy the service, and to work. That's the meaning of life.

Tom Edwards [00:43:25]:

Our mission statement for our ministry is. And people, when they hear it, they think it's kind of a take on prosperity ministry. So we say that we are called to help people find their place, embrace his mission, and live their best life in Christ. And so it's not about a car, it's not about a spouse, it's not about a house. I'm sounding like Dr. Seuss. It's about knowing Him. Your best life in Christ is what God describes to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 1:1:5, before I form you in your mother's womb, I knew you.

Tom Edwards [00:44:02]:

So helping people, Colossians 3:3. You have died to this life. And your real life is hidden in God, in Christ. And so I want to find out what. What my real life is, what he formed me to be, become it, and know him on a deep basis. To me, that's the meaning of life.

Jim Spiegel [00:44:22]:

That's great. Good stuff. Thank you, Tom. This has been great. I've enjoyed spending this time with you.

Tom Edwards [00:44:28]:

You made this not painful. Thank you.

Jim Spiegel [00:44:32]:

Thank you for listening to the Kalos Center Podcast. To get notified when we publish a new episode, please subscribe and let us know what you think. By way the leaving us a review.